Fell Pony Podcast episode 1
Interview Host: Tom Lloyd
Guest: Andrew Thorpe, Wellbrow Fell Pony Stud
Date: [Transcript Date Not Provided]
1. Introductory Questions
Tom Lloyd: Andrew, how you doing? Welcome, welcome to the um, chicken
shed. Have you been wintering, because it's a long slog isn't it?
Andrew Thorpe: It certainly is, doing alright, not doing so bad, we're getting
through nicely.
Tom Lloyd: And when do you stop feeding animals, how long have you got to
go?
Andrew Thorpe: We'll feed until into April, but um, we'll feed sheep right until the
end of April, but ponies, they decide when they want to go. Ponies decide when
they're going to stop, as soon as they get them. So one day they'll just not be at
the Fell gate.
Tom Lloyd: One day they'll just, they'll have all…?
Andrew Thorpe: Yeah, they'll have all, one or two of them will just start clearing
off earlier than the rest, but you'll just go and they'll just be cows there.
Sometimes I feel like they go a bit too soon, but there's nothing you can do
about it. They make their own mind up about ponies.
Tom Lloyd: So describe to me, can you describe your world, Andrew? So you've
got a yard and you know, your farm and there's a common where the ponies
are run out. And just describe the setup with you and Michelle and Gemma,
what you've got going on there?
Andrew Thorpe: We're farmers, that's all we are, we're sheep farmers really.
We've a herd of Galloway cattle and we've a herd of fell ponies. We keep the fell
ponies live out on common land. We breed off them. We try to breed them to thebest of our ability. But my wife's a Master Salary and Harness Maker, it's Michelle.
We have a salary shop in the farmyard. My daughter Gemma, she's involved
with us, but she works for Farmers' Guardian. So my brother, he's not part of us,
but we're best of mates and he's a farrier. So as far as ponies go, we can just
about manage anything.
Tom Lloyd: So how extensive is the common where they're grazing? What sort of
acreage or hectares, what are we talking about there?
Andrew Thorpe: About 5,000 acres. That's where the ponies run. We've two lots
of common what we use. On the other side of the valley, common on the other
side of the valley, two largest registrations in Lancashire are on the other side of
the valley. Scout Moor and Rural Moor are two largest registrations in Lancashire.
Tom Lloyd: Can you explain to people at home who might know what a fell pony
is, but they don't really understand the extensiveness, how they run and how
they're managed. Are they untouched? Are they unhandled? How often do you
see them, the ponies that are out?
Andrew Thorpe: I see them more or less every day. I keep my eye on them. I
know where they live. They stick to their own part of Moor. We always call it Moor.
It's common land. They stick to their own part of common. We have one mare
that has never been touched by a man. There's only one, but that one's never
been touched by a man. If it had been, I would have showed it everywhere
because it's out of this world. But we never handled it as a youngster. They tend
to go back to the same place and fall every year, more or less the same place.
Tom Lloyd: And what sort of size groups do they hang out in? Family groups or
groups of a similar age?
Andrew Thorpe: They do hang about in groups of a similar age. But when you're
feeding, it's amazing. The Moor, what some people call, I don't know, matriarch
or the Moor that is the actual boss…
Tom Lloyd: As you're getting nearer to end up male, then they come in. That's
really interesting. So how often would you get these ponies in? How often do you
do a round-up and bring them home? And I don't know, do you do the worming?And do you do the feet? How much interaction is there between you and the
ponies throughout a year?
Andrew Thorpe: We won't be long now before we bring them all home. Worm
them and do them for lice. Ponies get lousy in spring. So as we're getting
towards spring, before we get to lambing time or anything like that, we'll bring
them home and worm them and do them for lice. They go back to Moor. They
fall out Moor. Then we want them all home somewhere between 1st of July and
about 12th of July, we want them all.
Tom Lloyd: So Sergeant Greet as dispersal sale, is that how you got started?
Andrew Thorpe: We'd had fell ponies previously. But me dad, we'd actually had,
we had a beautiful brown mare called Walthwaite Fancy. We had a black
Heltondale mare and we had fell stallion down in Romany the second. But me
dad wouldn't breed fells. Me dad crossed them. So we knew Sarge's sale were
coming up. We more or less got rid of, sold nearly all our ponies at the time.
When we got to Sarge's sale, we studied the catalogue, studied some stud
books to see which mares would have foals registered off them pretty regularly.
Polly Perkins, the fourth, she'd had foals registered. Heltondale Polly, fifth, fourth,
we bought. Regular, they were having foals registered.
Tom Lloyd: So when you say clear, so then you're talking about the foal
immunodeficiency syndrome there, is that right?
Andrew Thorpe: Yeah. At the time, people weren't really clued up on it. We knew
nothing about it after that sale. Bill Potter and Thomas Capstick came down to
look at foal off both Polly Perkins' colt foal she had the following year. And while
they were having a brew with my mum, Thomas were telling my mum all about
it.
Tom Lloyd: So you were looking for a type?
Andrew Thorpe: Yeah, we were looking for a type. Wealth, weight, fancy. We
wanted that type. When we were kids, your dad had a brown mare and he had a
black mare. And I think they'd come from Sages.
Tom Lloyd: So you would have gone to Sarge's sale looking for a stallion as well
then? And, a stallion's half the herd, right? That's a big decision when you start.Andrew Thorpe: We never thought about stallion. We never even thought about
stallion. We went to Sarge's sale to buy moors. We went, we looked at the stallion
we looked at the moors that we decided we wanted. There were one we
changed our mind of when we went around in pens. But the other five we
bought. But, as soon as we saw a rover, Elton Dale Rover, we'd never seen
anything like him.
Tom Lloyd: It was a really exciting sale, wasn't it?
Andrew Thorpe: Yeah, we went around pens and looked at them, then we came
back into front at auction. It was packed.
Tom Lloyd: Who influenced you in those early days then? Who did you get
advice off did you go and see people did people come round and when we're
losing herds here you are establishing a new herd?
Andrew Thorpe: I don't think being a sheep farmer did me any harm because
you take notice. They're all sheep farmers.
Tom Lloyd: You often hear people talking about a stamp of pony, so an
untrained eye might put five ponies in a ring from different studs and they might
all look the same. But actually there are subtle differences. What's a well-bred
stamp of pony?
Andrew Thorpe: Well-bred stamp of pony is normally under 13 hh maybe not
over long. Nice short, good length of rein, always a good shoulder. With us
having done a lot of riding you need to breed a pony for a market. They’ve got to
be ridden, but I don’t breed the real big. I’m pushing 14 hh because of where we
are, but I want a tremendous set of legs underneath them, beautiful flat bone, a
small ox. That is why my ponies move.
Tom Lloyd: So you came away from the Heltondale dispersal sale with what, 7, 8
mares and a stallion?
Andrew Thorpe: No, I've come away with 5 mares and a stallion.
Tom Lloyd: How many mares can you catch back to the semi-wild, semi-feral
stuff?Andrew Thorpe: I could put my hands on the moor, I could walk most of them,
walk up to them, just rub my hand along them. I'd be lucky if I could put a rope
on 3 on moor.
Tom Lloyd: Was there a point where you start showing right from the word go?
Andrew Thorpe: We got into showing gradually. First time I walked in ring, I went
to class. I'd been brand new to it. Showed Lancashire Lad and got advice on
handling wispy hairs.
Tom Lloyd: So is that why you've got so many stallions?
Andrew Thorpe: We've got so many stallions because I haven't got time really to
serve mares in Ireland. We need to put stallions, need to put mares in different
pieces of land.
Tom Lloyd: Has there ever been a point where you thought I've had enough of
this, let's cut down?
Andrew Thorpe: There’ll come a point, won’t there Tom? But no, I can manage
ponies. I enjoy it.
Tom Lloyd: So what do you think is the future for the semi-feral herds?
Andrew Thorpe: Hopefully that different families that have fell ponies today, that
younger generations will want to keep one or two. But none of them want to
keep the amount of ponies that previous generations have kept.
Tom Lloyd: Which pony or award are you the most proud of?
Andrew Thorpe: One show I wanted to win, Yorkshire farmer show. Also,
champion fell with Lancashire Lad at Welbury Stallion show.
Tom Lloyd: You have a story about Walter, haven't you?
Andrew Thorpe: Yes, Walter Lloyd, my dad. Ponies got off the common, he leapt
on a pony with no saddle or bridle and rode it up the main road.Tom Lloyd: One-word questions: ride or drive?
Andrew Thorpe: Ride.
Tom Lloyd: Favourite pony?
Andrew Thorpe: O’Carrie.
Tom Lloyd: Black, brown, bay, or grey?
Andrew Thorpe: Grey. Proper grey.
Fell Pony Management and Breeding
Practices
Source: Fell Pony Podcast, Episode 1, Interview with Andrew Thorpe by Tom Lloyd
Guest: Andrew Thorpe, Wellbrow Fell Pony Stud
Date: [Transcript Date Not Provided]
1. Winter Feeding and Pony Management
• Ponies control their own grazing schedule: “Ponies decide when they're
going to stop [feeding]. As soon as they get them, one day they'll just not
be at the Fell gate. One or two of them will start clearing off earlier than
the rest, but you'll just go and they'll just be cows there.”
• Sheep are fed until the end of April; ponies are semi-feral and self-
regulate their grazing.
• “They make their own mind up about ponies.”
2. Farm and Herd Setup
• The stud is primarily a sheep farm with a herd of Galloway cattle and Fell
Ponies.
• Fell Ponies live out on common land, and breeding is conducted with
attention to mare lineage and type.
• Family involvement: Michelle (wife) is a Master Harness Maker, Gemma
(daughter) works for Farmers’ Guardian, and Andrew’s brother is a farrier.
• “As far as ponies go, we can just about manage anything.”
3. Grazing Extent and Pony Distribution
• Ponies run on approximately 5,000 acres of common land.• The herd utilizes two large commons: Scout Moor and Rural Moor, which
are the two largest registrations in Lancashire.
• Less than 200 Fell Pony mares live on the fell in a semi-feral state globally.
• Ponies generally return to the same grazing areas annually and maintain
semi-wild behavior, except for rare individuals that are completely
untouched.
4. Pony Social Structure
• Ponies group by age for grazing and family groups under a matriarch.
• Older mares, such as Eltondale Lucky Girl V, maintain dominance well into
old age (≈30 years).
• Foals and younger ponies are integrated according to maternal lineage;
the herd respects family ties.
5. Pony Health and Handling
• Ponies are wormed and treated for lice in spring: “Ponies get lousy in
spring… before lambing time we bring them home and worm them.”
• They are monitored daily for condition, especially during early summer
and breeding periods.
• Handling on the moor is limited; Andrew can touch most ponies, but only
a few can be roped while still on common land.
6. Breeding Practices and Lineage Selection
• Initial herd expansion was via Heltondale dispersal sale, purchasing
mares with consistent foaling history.
• Priority in selection: survivability, fertility, temperament, bloodlines, and
conformation.
• “First quality is like will it survive?… Then after that will it breed?
Temperament is next… Then bloodlines and confirmation.”• Stallion management: multiple stallions used to cover different pastures;
breeding schedules regulated by mare availability and location.
• Stallions must demonstrate hardiness in extreme environmental
conditions: “If they’re losing condition through winter I bring them home, if
they keep the condition they’re kept as stallions.”
7. Pony Type and Conformation
• Preference for traditional Fell Pony type: small, flat bone, correct joint
structure, short back, long rein, good shoulder, strong movement.
• Ponies must be ridable: “We breed for a market… I don’t breed the real big…
I want a tremendous set of legs underneath them.”
• Movement is highly valued, as it reflects functional and aesthetic quality.
• Preferred colors: grey, ideally developing full dappling by 8 years.
8. Semi-Feral Herd Challenges and Future
• Semi-feral herds are declining due to aging breeders and smaller herd
sizes maintained by younger generations.
• “Hopefully different families that have Fell Ponies today… younger
generations will want to keep one or two, but none of them want to keep
the amount of ponies that previous generations have kept.”
9. Showing and Awards
• Shows are used to assess movement and confirmation, but primary focus
remains on breeding for functional quality.
• Andrew’s personal goals: winning Ealing and Yorkshire farmer shows,
Stallion Shows.
• “Burt [Moreland] looks for the same as me… they’ve got to move… he likes
speed, we like speed.”10. Anecdotal Insights
• Generational knowledge and observation are crucial: “Following your
mum and dad round… you just learn, you learn as you’re following.”
• Exemplifies hands-on, experiential learning passed down through
generations of Fell Pony breeders.
• Story of Walter Lloyd riding a pony up the main road with no saddle or
bridle illustrates traditional handling skills and herd management
experience.
11. Summary of Key Principles
1. Herd Autonomy: Ponies largely self-regulate on common land.
2. Breeding Focus: Survivability, fertility, temperament, conformation, and
market suitability.
3. Type and Movement: Emphasis on traditional Fell Pony characteristics
and practical ridability.
4. Environmental Adaptation: Ponies must thrive under semi-feral
conditions and harsh climates.
5. Generational Learning: Knowledge is experiential, not solely academic.
6. Semi-Feral Conservation: Declining numbers require strategic
management to maintain breed integrity.
Fell Pony Podcast episode 2
Host: Tom Lloyd
Guest: Sue Millard – Author, Fell Pony Society Council Member, Webmaster, Fell
Pony Museum Creator
Date: [Transcript Date Not Provided]
Complete Q&A Reference (With Speaker
Attribution)
1.
Tom Lloyd: Your first introduction to Fells was on a pony trekking holiday in 1968.
So something about your pony must have really captured you and made an
impression, right?
Sue Millard: Yes. He was a large brown Fell Pony called Wimpsy. His original
breeder said he was so pretty he looked like one of them Wade Wimpsies and
spelled it with a P. He’s in the stud book as Wimpsy, no prefix. I think he was bred
by Edwin Walker. He was by a stallion called Mary John, son of Master John, the
last of the traveling stallions. He was a big brown gelding, very hairy, loads of
mane—you had to move his forelock to see his eyes. He was a really lovely pony.
2.
Tom Lloyd: For people who don’t know, there are nine, well, they used to say nine
distinct breeds in the United Kingdom… What is a Fell Pony and how do we
separate it from all the others? What makes it a Fell Pony?
Sue Millard: The core of the breed consists of herds on the open fell. About 20
human breeders maintain these herds on upland commons. Ponies live on the
tops most of the year, only coming down to valleys to breed and wean foals. FellPonies are sturdy, big enough to carry an adult. They were originally bred to
carry packs of lead, wool, or goods—16–20 stone. Typically 13.2–14 hands, black,
brown, bay, or grey.
3.
Tom Lloyd: Chestnuts? Why are we not allowed chestnuts?
Sue Millard: The original breed standard definers didn’t realise chestnut was
recessive. They only allowed blacks, greys, browns, and bays. Occasionally, one
in a thousand foals might turn out chestnut, but it’s excluded, and the council
won’t allow it.
4.
Tom Lloyd: Is that why we now have more breeds than we did before?
Sue Millard: Yes. DNA analysis has shown parts of the UK pony population are
genetically distinct and have been for hundreds of years.
5.
Tom Lloyd: So what are the origins of the Fell Pony that we know today?
Sue Millard: Horses and ponies existed in the British Isles before the last Ice Age.
After the ice retreated, ponies returned as grasslands grew. By around 7000 BC,
there was a dispersed population of ponies. Humans likely helped introduce
some, but it was probably a mixture of both natural migration and human
intervention.
6.
Tom Lloyd: Is this the common ancestor of the native breeds?
Sue Millard: Yes. Ponies existed before the Romans and gradually became
distinct due to geographical isolation.
7.Tom Lloyd: Did the environment shape these different types of ponies?
Sue Millard: Yes. Ponies adapted to their local environment. Humans also
selected animals suited to the jobs they needed locally.
8.
Tom Lloyd: When did the Fell Ponies separate from other ponies?
Sue Millard: It’s unclear exactly. References to Galloways in southwest Scotland
date to the 16th–17th centuries. They were small bay ponies, fast, enduring,
intelligent, and used by border reavers. The Fell Pony derives partly from these
Galloways, as do the Dales and partially the Highlands.
9.
Tom Lloyd: How do we know what the origins of the Fell Pony looked like?
Sue Millard: We don’t. The earliest drawing is a tiny print by Thomas Allum
showing trotting races on High Street. The earliest identifiable Fell Pony type is
Strawberry Girl in the 1860s—grey, clean-legged, almost like a sturdy Welsh
Section A. Half of the earliest photos from the 1890s were either Dales or not
identified specifically.
10.
Tom Lloyd: Interesting, you mentioned the trotting race—is that the Shepherd’s
Meet up on High Street?
Sue Millard: Yes. High Street is over 2,000 feet and contains a straight Roman
road. Farmers would meet there to exchange stray sheep. They’d also have
races, wrestling, and other country pursuits. The straight Roman road gave good
footing for pony races.
11.
Tom Lloyd: So when do we move from ponies that ran on the fell to the Fell Pony
as a recognized breed with rules and regulations?Sue Millard: Gradually. The first printed reference to “fell pony” is 1853 in the
Westmoreland Gazette. By the late 19th century, the Riding and Polo Pony
Society set up a stud book, mainly to provide native ponies for polo. Fells were
registered in Westmoreland, Cumberland, and Northumberland from about
1896. The height limit of 14.2 hands was established then.
12.
Tom Lloyd: The ponies were integral to agriculture and transport; were they
bought and sold at fairs?
Sue Millard: Yes. Dealers bought ponies from farms and sold them at fairs for
higher prices. The breed varied in size and hair—some small, some large, some
with lots of hair, some almost clean-legged in summer. Modern Fells are more
consistent due to selective breeding.
13.
Tom Lloyd: Living where you are, surrounded by Fell Pony breeders, does the
landscape shape the kind of person or breeding approach?
Sue Millard: Absolutely. Being near the Howgills and surrounding commons,
breeders maintain hardy stock. My book Hoofprints in Eden captures this
moment and categorizes breeders historically.
14.
Tom Lloyd: You mention the Darg family. What’s significant about them?
Sue Millard: The Dargs are the oldest known Fell Pony breeders, dating back to
1820. They bred grey Galloways, including Strawberry Girl from the Peepings line,
known for trotting races in the 1860s. They still call them Galloways rather than
Fells.
15.
Tom Lloyd: Your first Fell Pony was a Sledale, right?Sue Millard: Yes. Registered as Swindale. I’ve always preferred Sledales,
especially brown ones.
16.
Tom Lloyd: Were Sledales consistently true ponies?
Sue Millard: Yes. Mrs. Newell commented that Sledales were consistently true
ponies. My second Fell Pony was Sledale Angus—a large mahogany-brown
pony, absolutely gorgeous.
17.
Tom Lloyd: Were Dales ponies historically used to improve Fell stock?
Sue Millard: Yes. Crossbreeding occurred to increase size or stamina. My mare
works out at roughly 50% Dales, 50% Fell in ancestry.
18.
Tom Lloyd: Why was preserving Fell stock on the fells so important?
Sue Millard: To maintain hardiness, stamina, and type. Crossbreeding risks
diluting traits needed for survival on the fells. Hill-bred stock maintains the
genes for endurance and hardiness.
19.
Tom Lloyd: Is preserving hill herds getting harder?
Sue Millard: Yes. Few financial incentives exist, and grazing rights require linked
property ownership. Only about 20 herds exist. Some new herds have started via
leased or purchased rights.
20.
Tom Lloyd: Genetics: how is the Fell related to other breeds?Sue Millard: Fells are genetically closest to Dales, then Shire and Clydesdale,
with some Hackney influence. Highland Ponies are more distant. Historic
crossbreeding occurred across the Solway Firth.
21. Quick Questions – One Word Answers:
Tom Lloyd: Ride or drive?
Sue Millard: Drive
Tom Lloyd: Favorite pony or line in the history of the breed?
Sue Millard: Sledales, especially brown ones
Tom Lloyd: Black, brown, bay, or grey?
Sue Millard: Dark bay, halfway between brown and bay
22.
Tom Lloyd: You have a new book, your sixth novel. Tell me about it.
Sue Millard: It’s a coming-of-age novel set in the 1970s. Claire Armstrong’s
parents run a country pub in the Lake District with pony trekking. Claire learns
from the ponies but faces challenges from humans. It’s available via Jackdaw
E-Books, Amazon, or bookshops.
Fell Pony Reference Guide (Based on
Sue Millard’s Insights)
1. Breed Origins and History
• Fell Ponies are native to the northern fells of Cumbria and Westmoreland,
with small populations in Northumbria and Lancashire.
• Historical ancestors existed in the British Isles before the last Ice Age;
post-Ice Age reintroduction of ponies occurred naturally and via humans
around 7000 BC.• Early references to Galloways (small, fast, enduring ponies) in southwest
Scotland from the 16th–17th centuries represent an early influence on the
Fell Pony.
• Early documentation refers to Fell Ponies in print by 1853; formal studbook
registration began in the late 19th century via the Riding and Polo Pony
Society.
• The breed was used for agriculture, pack transport, and polo, favoring
stamina, hardiness, and versatility.
2. Physical Characteristics
• Typical height: 13.2–14 hands.
• Colors: Black, Brown, Bay, Grey (Chestnut is genetically possible but
excluded by breed standard).
• Body type: sturdy, capable of carrying an adult; originally bred to carry 16–
20 stone in packs.
• Coat: historically variable in hairiness; modern selective breeding favors
heavier coats, especially feathering on legs.
3. Core Traits
• Hardiness and stamina: Adapted to live on upland fells year-round.
• Intelligence and versatility: Suitable for riding, driving, trekking, and pack
work.
• Environmental adaptation: Ponies on the fells retain traits for survival in
harsh terrain; lowland breeding may reduce hardiness and endurance
(epigenetic effect).
4. Herd Management and Breeding
• Core herds are maintained by ~20 breeders with grazing rights on upland
commons.
• Mares and foals come down from the fells for breeding and weaning.• Historical crossbreeding included Dales, Exmoor, Arabians, Hackneys, and
Welsh Cob lines to improve size, stamina, and carriage ability.
• Hill-bred stock is critical to maintaining genetic resilience, hardiness,
and traditional type.
• Maintaining pure stock prevents the original Fell type from being diluted
by crossbreeding.
5. Key Bloodlines and Types
• Sledale line: valued for consistent type, trotting ability, and temperament;
brown ponies preferred by some breeders.
• Peepings line: notable for grey trotters like Strawberry Girl (1860s).
• Crossbreeding history:
◦ Dales and Fell ponies interbred historically.
◦ Half-bred Arab, Exmoor, and Hackney influences were occasionally
introduced to improve performance traits.
• Preservation of traditional bloodlines remains vital for breed integrity.
6. Historical Uses
• Transport: carried packs of goods (lead, wool, etc.) across the fells.
• Agriculture: adapted to rugged terrain and local conditions.
• Polo and riding: smaller, hardy ponies used as mounts by Indian cavalry
officers returning from India; required studbooks to track local native
ponies.
7. Modern Considerations
• Conservation: Hill herds are under pressure due to financial challenges
and property/grazing rights limitations.• Genetics: Modern DNA analysis shows Fell Ponies are most closely related
to Dales, followed by Shire, Clydesdale, and Hackney; Highland Ponies are
more distant.
• Breed sustainability: Regular introduction of hill-bred stock into lowland
herds maintains hardiness and breed characteristics.
• Population size: Only ~20 hill herds remain; proper management ensures
the continuation of a hardy, purebred nucleus.
8. Cultural and Historical References
• Galloways cited in Shakespeare and early racing records, e.g., 1777
Whitehaven Intelligencer (“stolen bay Galloway, 12 hands high”).
• Early trotting races and Shepherd’s Meets on High Street (Lake District)
influenced breeding selection for speed and stamina.
9. Summary of Core Lessons for BOEI
1. Environmental adaptation is key: Fell Ponies maintain unique traits due
to upland living; lowland breeding alters these traits.
2. Preservation of hill-bred stock is crucial for maintaining hardiness, type,
and historical lineage.
3. Historical crossbreeding was purposeful, aiming to improve stamina, size,
or speed while keeping core traits intact.
4. Genetic and epigenetic understanding can guide breeding decisions,
ensuring conservation and performance traits are preserved.
5. Bloodline documentation is essential for continuity; Sledale and Peepings
lines are historically significant.
6. Conservation strategy requires legal access to grazing rights, financial
support, and strategic breeding programs.
Fell Pony Podcast episode 3
1. Question:
"So I guess what I usually do, what I'd really like to do is just go right back to the
start Viv and why and how did you get into Fell ponies?"
Answer:
Viv explains that her interest started as a teenager, around age 11, working
voluntarily at a riding school near the Cheshire-Derbyshire border. She rode
ponies bareback to and from the fields, saved money to hire ponies, and had a
particular fondness for a black pony called Bess, who she believes was a Fell
Pony. Later in her 20s, after a Welsh Cob, she wanted a Fell Pony because of their
hardy, semi-wild, primeval qualities. She appreciates their independent nature,
stamina, and connection to the wild.
2. Question:
"So where did the desire to start travelling with ponies come from?"
Answer:
Viv says it’s hard to pinpoint — from age eight she always wanted to travel with
ponies. She was not competitive, unlike her sisters, and enjoyed freedom and
connection with animals rather than appearances or showing. Influences
included childhood films and books featuring children and horses exploring the
hills. She also mentions her interest in driving horses and early inspiration from a
friend, Roland Wolfenden, who shared her passion for long-distance equestrian
adventures.
3. Question:
"You finally did get to do some long amazing trips and in Canada where I got all
my Paxil kit from you would be known as a long rider, I think is it right in 2006 you
did the journey from John O'Groats to Land's End?"
Answer:
Yes. Viv confirms that her 2006 John O’Groats to Land’s End trip was her longest
to that point. She had been doing shorter trips since age 30, but this was an
extended adventure with her daughter Elsa. They traveled unsupported, carrying
everything in saddlebags. After completing the journey, she was invited by the
Long Riders Guild to become an honorary longrider, which was a special
recognition for her achievement.4. Question:
"Land's End to John O'Groats and then so you come back and hit the ground
with a big slump because you've just done this amazing trip and it's all over so
what happens next you start thinking about another one?"
Answer:
Viv explains that she immediately wanted another adventure but had family
and financial responsibilities. Her mind stayed on the trip. The physical and
emotional impact of the journey was profound, particularly overcoming
mountains in Scotland, and the experience was transformative for both her and
her daughter. Returning home involved a readjustment, but she remained
determined to continue long rides whenever possible.
5. Question:
"It sounds actually like it was a real rite of passage actually that journey it was …"
Answer:
Viv agrees. She describes how previous experience prepared them (riding and
driving, training ponies, handling traffic incidents), but nothing could fully
prepare for such a long trip. The journey was transformative, creating resilience,
deep bonds with ponies, and a lasting impact on both her and her daughter.
6. Question:
"But you decided to do it again in 2016?"
Answer:
Viv details her “Horse Land” project, connecting white horses and other equine-
related landmarks across Britain. Initially inspired by her 40th birthday ride on
the Ridgeway and Uffington White Horse, she researched other white horses and
land art sculptures to connect on horseback. The 2016 journey was ambitious,
aiming to explore Britain’s equestrian history and heritage while riding
unsupported.
7. Question:"So you made this trip in about I believe 1400 miles into this trip … you pulled your
back?"
Answer:
Viv recounts her injury. She underestimated her back issues, which became
severe during the ride, forcing her to pause in Sussex. She describes the
frustration and sense of unfinished business, which took until 2019 to complete
the journey. She eventually finished with her daughter, which was fulfilling.
8. Question:
"So let's talk about the ponies because we've not really talked about them that
much … you've got … Mirthwaite Micardo?"
Answer:
Viv details her Fell Ponies:
• Mirthwaite Micardo (Mickey): Bought as a two-year-old, best traveling
pony, very strong character, not ideal for Pony Club games.
• Mirthwaite Magic Spell: Bought as a yearling, daughter of Mirthwaite
Magic.
• Mirthwaite Morning Glory and Mirthwaite Posh: Bought at dispersal sale;
Glory was unhandled at age 11 but adapted quickly, demonstrating
bravery and character.
Temperament, character, bravery, and stamina are prioritized over appearance.
9. Question:
"Okay so I'd like to talk a little bit about the kit you use …"
Answer:
Viv explains packing strategies: with a pack pony, she carries a tent, sleeping
bag, portable electric fencing, hobbles, and minimal personal items like clean
clothing. Weight management is crucial. Custom pack saddles and panniers
allow practical, lightweight, flexible carrying. She also uses maps, laptops, and
head torches for navigation and organization.10. Question:
"Working out routes obviously that's one of the challenges what are the other
challenges and despite the challenges what's stopping anybody else going and
doing it?"
Answer:
The primary challenge is ponies. Their welfare is paramount, including correct
shoeing and ensuring no injuries. Fell ponies are hardy but require careful
management. Farrier access and logistical planning are major factors. Other
challenges include terrain, weather, and physical stamina of the rider.
11. Question:
"What would Viv say to the young Viv who had the dream of traveling with
ponies all those years ago?"
Answer:
“Go for it.” Viv wishes she had traveled earlier and encourages younger self to
start journeys sooner. She acknowledges responsibilities and logistics make it
more difficult later in life, but emphasizes courage and commitment to the
dream.
12. Question:
"What have you learned from your ponies?"
Answer:
Viv emphasizes lessons of resilience, trust, and bond. Ponies are stoic, capable,
humorous, and trustworthy. Long trips build deep relationships. She notes that
once trust is established, ponies will respond intuitively to rider cues. Experiences
with her ponies have reinforced persistence and teamwork.
13. Question:
"Where are you happiest Viv?"
Answer:
High on the hills with her ponies. While she loves people, her greatest joy is theconnection with animals, being outdoors, and riding, particularly in challenging
or scenic locations.
14. Question (Rapid Fire):
a) Ride or drive?
Answer: Ride, because of the physical closeness and bond, though she
acknowledges long-term may favor driving due to hip issues.
b) Favorite pony or line of Fell Ponies?
Answer: Mirthwaite Ponies; especially Tee Bay Campbellton Victor’s influence
appears in many of her ponies’ pedigrees.
c) Black, brown, bay, or grey?
Answer: Black, though she admires greys and has a fondness for bays.
Reference Document: Viv Wood-Gee
on Fell Ponies and Long-Distance
Equestrian Travel
Source: Interview by Tom Lloyd, The Fell Pony Podcast
1. Early Interest in Fell Ponies
Viv Wood-Gee describes her early exposure to ponies and the development of
her interest in Fell Ponies:
• Began volunteering at a riding school at age 11, riding ponies bareback
several miles to and from fields.
• Initially rode non-pedigree ponies; one black pony “Bess” is retrospectively
identified as a Fell Pony.• Owned a Welsh Cob in her 20s before returning to Fell Ponies due to their
hardiness, native qualities, and close-to-wild characteristics.
• Appeal of Fell Ponies includes stamina, independence, and a connection
to the “primeval” nature of the hills.
2. Motivation for Long-Distance Travel with Ponies
• Desire to travel with ponies existed from childhood.
• Influenced by books and films such as The White Stallion, depicting a
close bond between rider and horse over long journeys.
• Competitive activities like showing held little appeal; preference was
always for riding over hills and remote landscapes.
• Collaborated with Roland Wolfenden on early long-distance drives,
developing an interest in long-distance equestrian exploration.
3. Long-Distance Riding Experiences
John O’Groats to Land’s End (2006)
• First long-distance ride with daughter Elsa (age 13) on Fell Ponies.
• Undertaken without a support vehicle; carried all provisions in saddlebags.
• Duration: 8 weeks, averaging 25 miles per day, with only two days off.
• Experiences included mountainous terrain in Scotland, logistical
challenges, and managing food, water, and pony welfare.
• Outcome: Recognized by the Long Riders Guild as “honorary longriders.”
• Key lessons: “Traveling is about the journey, not the destination”; building
resilience and teamwork with ponies.
Wales and Subsequent Rides (2007–2010)
• Rode across Wales in 2007 with Lancer (21 years old) and Elsa’s mare (in
foal).• 2010: Ride from Skye to London following drovers’ routes; aimed to travel
as authentically as possible on traditional drove roads.
• Duration: 8 weeks; followed historic drover pace (10–12 miles/day in
Scotland, ~20 miles/day in England).
• Outcomes: Increased understanding of historic routes, landscape history,
and the cultural role of horses.
• Emphasized the importance of pony fitness and preparedness.
Horse Land Project (2016)
• Goal: Connect historical and modern equestrian landmarks, including
white horses and land art sculptures.
• Distance: Approximately 1,400 miles.
• Challenges: Severe back injury halted the ride; later completed the final
segment in 2019.
• Learned to adapt plans based on physical limitations and to maintain
pony welfare.
4. Fell Ponies Used in Long-Distance Travel
• Mirthwaite Micardo (Mickey): Two-year-old purchased from Fell End;
became the main traveling pony.
◦ Traits: Stamina, courage, humor, adaptability to long-distance
travel.
• Mirthwaite Magic Spell: Yearling purchased for temperament and
reliability.
• Mirthwaite Morning Glory and Mirthwaite Posh (filly): Added for family
and herd cohesion; excellent temperament for training and travel.
• Desired traits for traveling ponies:
◦ Brave, resilient, capable of navigating obstacles, follow leader
without guidance, tolerate urban and rural environments.◦ Strong bond with rider essential for safety and coordination.
5. Long-Distance Travel Kit
• Travel carried on the pony or pack pony; self-sufficient.
• Key items: tent, sleeping bag, portable electric fencing, hobbles, head
torch, maps, cooking gear, and minimal “luxuries” (e.g., clean clothes).
• Weight: 10–12 kg per side on pack saddle, with additional soft items on top
bag.
• Pack saddles custom-made for comfort and stability.
• Travel planning prioritizes: pony welfare, farrier access, safe terrain, and
minimal logistical constraints.
6. Lessons Learned from Long-Distance Travel
• Pony Welfare: Primary concern; ensuring proper shoeing, health, and rest.
• Pony Bond: Trust and communication are critical; ponies respond to
subtle cues and follow leadership.
• Resilience: Both pony and rider must adapt to physical and
environmental challenges.
• Planning: Includes route mapping, supply management, and contingency
for obstacles.
• Personal Reflection: Long-distance travel builds patience, endurance,
and perspective; it is as much about personal growth as achieving
milestones.
7. Advice to Aspiring Long-Distance Riders
• Start early if possible: “Go for it when you’re younger; just do it.”
• Focus on the journey, not competition.• Prioritize building a strong, trusting relationship with ponies.
• Learn from experience, adapt to physical and environmental conditions.
8. Philosophical Observations
• “Traveling is not a destination; it’s the journey that matters.”
• Joy and fulfillment come from active engagement, problem-solving, and
connection with animals and landscape.
• Historic routes and equestrian heritage provide added depth and
meaning to travel.
9. Personal Preferences
• Riding vs. Driving: Currently prefers riding for closeness with ponies, but
may consider driving long-term due to hip issues.
• Favorite Ponies / Lines: Mirthwaite ponies; historically significant Tee Bay
Campbellton Victor appears in pedigrees.
• Color Preference: Black, but maintains some grey and soft spot for bay
ponies.
• Happiness: High on hills with ponies, emphasizing connection and shared
exploration.
Fell Pony Podcast episode 4
Fell Pony Podcast – Peter Boustead
Interview Host: Tom Lloyd
Guest: Peter Boustead, Chairman of the Fell Pony Society, judge, and breeder
Date: [Transcript Reference]
1. Tom Lloyd: Introduction and Background Question
Question 1: So look let's go right back to the beginning Peter. I believe your father
had Fell Ponies, he had Edenside Ponies and your uncle had Greenbell Ponies. So
whereabouts were they and what was your involvement with them?
Answer 1 (Peter Boustead):
• Uncle farmed at Newbig and Onloom on the edge of the Howgills (hence
the name Greenbell).
• Always had a Fell or Dills type for farm work.
• Peter visited every summer during holidays and helped on the farm—first
exposure to ponies.
• In the mid-1960s, his uncle bought a registered black filly from Walter
Chua (Kirby Stephen), named Walton Surprise.
• Peter’s father had a couple of grey Fells from that mare, sired by
Frizzington White Heather.
• Early ponies were sometimes mistaken for Highland ponies, but more like
Dills.
• Father bred a few ponies under the Edenside name.
• Peter restarted breeding in 2008, naming his ponies Summer House after
local landmark used by a hospital.
Question 2: So when you started breeding again you started from scratch so did
you have an idea of the type of pony you wanted to breed?Answer 2 (Peter Bowstead):
• Had an idea of the type, influenced by Heltondale and Townend ponies.
• Goal: trace and restore his uncle’s line.
• Traced a fourth-generation pony in Scotland through the internet.
• Bought a three-year-old black filly (with a grey foal on the way), sired by
Lunesdale Mercury, out of his father’s last live pony.
• This filly became the foundation of the Summer House ponies.
Question 3: So how'd you go about choosing the right stallion? Because if you
put the best mare with the best stallion you don't necessarily get the best foal.
Answer 3 (Peter oustead):
• Initially in 2008, choosing stallion was partly guesswork regarding FIS3
(syndrome) status.
• Purchased Underwood’s Gideon, a stallion advertised online, previously
shown as a four-year-old.
• Mare tested clear for syndrome; stallion had few foals but bred well for
Peter.
• Early breeding success due to careful selection and some luck.
2. Judging Fell Ponies
Question 4: So let's get on to judging Peter. It’s very interesting the show world…
I’m really interested in how you go about judging one pony against another. Do
you have a list in your head or is it instinctive?
Answer 4 (Peter Boustead):
• First look for type—pony must “tell you it’s a Fell.”
• Hardiness is essential (“hard as iron”).
• Experience gained by visiting studs (Townend, Heltondale, Butterwick) and
seeing many ponies at once.• Look for improvers—ponies that will grow and improve over time.
• Walk and trot often indicate correct conformation.
• Focus on flat bone, good shoulder, tendon definition, and quality of
movement.
• Quality of feather, bone, and foot is as important as presence of features.
• Subtlety: type, movement, and potential matter more than immediate
perfection.
Question 5: Why is flat bone so important?
Answer 5 (Peter Bowstead):
• Denser and stronger than round bone; less prone to curbs, splints, or
injuries.
• Flat cannon bones and flat knees/hocks indicate structural strength.
• Tendons should be defined; “you should be able to put a pencil between
them.”
• Flat bone is characteristic of Fell pony workhorses; aligns with breed’s
traditional function.
Question 6: With several ponies in the ring, how do you decide which is better?
Answer 6 (Peter Boustead):
• Start with type—must match ideal Fell characteristics.
• Then consider movement and substance.
• Look for riding type or lighter bone only when appropriate.
• Traditional ponies were not necessarily smaller or hairier.
• Hardness, soundness, and function remain priorities.
Question 7: How do historical breed standards influence judging?Answer 7 (Peter Bowstead):
• Rules include head, eyes, ears, neck, main action, etc., established 100+
years ago.
• Fell Pony is unique in having point-based system for body parts (limbs
carry most weight).
• Marks designed for function—e.g., flaring nostrils for oxygen intake, small
ears for warmth.
• Breed standards derived from working ponies—emphasis on survival,
strength, and performance.
3. Breeding and Ownership
Question 8: What do you think having bred and owned ponies has taught you?
Answer 8 (Peter Boustead):
• “They’ve taught me as much as anybody else.”
• Breeding provides insights into genetics, care, and long-term planning.
• Observing ponies develops judgment, patience, and understanding of
type and function.
Question 9: Can anybody apply to be a trainee judge?
Answer 9 (Peter Boustead):
• Must be an adult member for 3+ years (≥21 years old).
• Requires a proposer and seconder.
• Start with an assessment day: view ponies, make notes, interview with
experienced judges.
• Successful candidates join trainee scheme with a mentor and attend
shows.
• Demand for judges is higher now; trainee scheme provides exposure to
different judging styles.Question 10: How do the original uses of Fell Ponies influence judging and
selection today?
Answer 10 (Peter Boustead):
• Purpose determined by habitat and work required.
• Ponies must be capable of farm work (plowing, carrying loads, pulling
carts).
• Modern marketing emphasizes versatility, hardiness, and low
maintenance.
• Fell Ponies can be ridden by young children or older adults; excellent in
harness.
4. Fell Pony Society and Celebrations
Question 11: Can you tell me a bit about the Fell Pony Society’s 100-year
celebrations?
Answer 11 (Peter Boustead):
• Events planned for early May; includes parade at Windsor (pending royal
consent).
• Tie-in with Queen’s 70th anniversary of the throne (2022).
• Breed shows are central; also social occasions to meet people, exchange
stories.
• Shows retain charm and community spirit; opportunity to see champions
and learn from experienced breeders.
Question 12: Any stories from your early shows?
Answer 12 (Peter Boustead):
• First show: grey pony and small brown pony with cow halters caused
mayhem but won class.• Encouragement from Eddie Wilson and Henry Harrison inspired him to
pursue judging.
• Learned much from senior breeders and judges; valued modesty and
mentorship.
• Anecdotes about Molly Lang, stud books, and judging practices illustrate
the history and culture of Fell Pony shows.
5. Personal Preferences
Question 13: Quick personal questions: ride or drive?
Answer 13: Drive
Question 14: Favorite pony or line in the history of the breed?
Answer 14: Townend Flash II – sire of “Lose a Lucky Lady,” first Fell to win Olympia
Mountain & Moorland Championship (1993).
Question 15: Preferred color?
Answer 15: Gray
Notes:
• Interview covers history, breeding, judging, and modern relevance of Fell
Ponies.
• Provides insight into maintaining breed type, judging criteria, and training
new judges.
• Stories highlight the culture, mentorship, and personal experiences within
the Fell Pony community.
Fell Pony Reference Notes – Peter
Bowstead1. Background and Breeding
• Uncle farmed at Newbig and Onloom on the edge of the Howgills; always
had Fell or Dills types for farm work.
• First exposure to ponies came from helping on the farm during summer
holidays.
• In the mid-1960s, uncle purchased a registered Fell filly (Walton Surprise)
from Walter Chua.
• Father bred a few grey Fells from Walton Surprise, sired by Frizzington
White Heather.
• Peter restarted breeding in 2008, naming his ponies Summer House,
inspired by a local hospital landmark.
• Breeding goal: restore his uncle’s line by tracing a fourth-generation pony
and acquiring a three-year-old black filly sired by Lunesdale Mercury;
this filly became the foundation of Summer House ponies.
• Stallion selection involves both pedigree research and practical
considerations: initially guessed FIS3 status and ensured mare and stallion
were healthy and clear.
2. Judging Criteria
• Type first: Ponies must look like Fells, suited to survival on the fell (hardy,
strong).
• Experience matters: Viewing large numbers of ponies at studs (Townend,
Heltondale, Butterwick) helps develop a trained eye.
• Improvers: Look for young ponies with potential to develop.
• Movement: Walk and trot indicate correct conformation.
• Structural qualities:
◦ Flat bone (dense, strong, less prone to splints/curbs).
◦ Well-defined tendons (“should be able to put a pencil between
them”).◦ Flat knees and hocks for strength and correct function.
◦ Good shoulder for reach and action.
• Feather, foot, and coat quality: Silky feather, strong hard feet, and overall
proportion important.
• Subtle assessment: Comparing ponies involves type, substance,
movement, and potential improvement rather than immediate perfection.
3. Importance of Breed Standards
• Original rules set ~100 years ago; Fell Pony uniquely has a points-based
system for body parts.
◦ Limbs and carcass carry the most weight.
◦ Head, neck, and other parts have fewer points but still important.
• Functional rationale for traits:
◦ Small ears conserve heat.
◦ Expanding nostrils allow better oxygen intake.
◦ Hard feet, flat bone, and strong structure suited to traditional
working purposes.
• Historical type derived from working ponies; selection focuses on survival,
strength, and versatility.
4. Ownership and Breeding Lessons
• Breeding teaches genetics, careful selection, and observation skills.
• Ownership develops judgment, patience, and practical knowledge of
pony care.
• Working with ponies instills understanding of type, function, and
improvement potential.
5. Trainee Judges• Eligibility: Adult members ≥21 years old, 3+ years membership, proposer
and seconder.
• Assessment day: observe ponies, take notes, interview with experienced
judges.
• Successful candidates join trainee scheme with a mentor, attend shows,
and learn practical judging.
• Demand for judges has increased; trainee scheme provides exposure to
multiple judging styles.
6. Modern Use and Marketing
• Ponies must remain functional, capable of traditional work: pulling carts,
plowing, carrying loads.
• Hardiness: Fell Ponies thrive outdoors and require minimal care.
• Low-maintenance: avoid overfeeding; ponies adapted to leaner
conditions.
• Versatile: suitable for children, elderly riders, riding bareback, or in harness.
• Marketing should highlight adaptability, hardiness, and longevity.
7. Historical Stories and Influences
• Mentorship and encouragement from senior breeders (Eddie Wilson,
Henry Harrison) guided Peter’s judging and breeding path.
• Observing older studs and breeders provided insight into breed history
and traditional practices.
• Examples:
◦ Townend Flash II: significant bloodline; sire of Olympia-winning pony
“Lose a Lucky Lady.”
◦ Traditional sleddle-type ponies: brown, hardy, sometimes low at
hock; extremely tough.◦ Learning through experience with shows and older breeders
teaches subtlety in selection and judging.
8. Personal Preferences
• Ride or drive: Drive
• Favorite pony/line: Townend Flash II
• Preferred color: Gray
9. Key Principles for Fell Ponies
1. Bone, foot, feather – “Top may come, bottom never” (cannot improve
structural quality).
2. Flat bone indicates strength and durability; tendons and joints should be
well defined.
3. Movement: walk and trot reveal conformation; a pony may improve over
time.
4. Type: must clearly identify as Fell, including hardiness, substance, and
proportion.
5. Versatility: able to work, ride, or drive; historically suited to farm and fell
work.
6. Marketing and modern relevance: emphasize low maintenance,
adaptability, and enduring strength.
Fell Pony Podcast episode 5
Fell Pony Podcast episode 6
Fell Pony Podcast – Libby Robinson
Interview (Tom Lloyd Questions &
Answers)
Host: Tom Lloyd
Guest: Libby Robinson
Topic: Working ponies, Fell Ponies, herd management, breeding, conservation,
and heritage.
1. Introductory Questions
Q1 (Tom Lloyd): Hey Libby, how you doing? Are you out of your wellies yet?
A1 (Libby Robinson): No, I’ve still got them on. Has it been a long hard winter this
one?
It has. It has. Snowed twice. Not good. But they’re okay. It’s good. It’s really good
up there. And the lark is now singing and the meadow pipit. So yeah, it’s good.
Q2 (Tom Lloyd): Let’s go right back to the start Libby. So where does this journey
begin?
A2 (Libby Robinson): I’ll start when I was three. I was born on a farm in County
Donegal in Ireland where my father had retired to farm after his army career. I
remember standing at the window of the Georgian farmhouse looking onto the
farmyard. The farm had 30 milking cows. I remember watching the teamwork
between two men and their horses hauling milk with carts. That memory
inspired a lot of what I’ve done in life.
2. Early Encounters with Ponies
Q3 (Tom Lloyd): So what was your first encounter with Fell Ponies?
A3 (Libby Robinson): When we moved to Kentmere in the Lake District, I was
about eight and pony mad. I met a black pony outside Kentmere Hall. I climbed
onto its back, and it put its head up and walked around. Years later, Sarge Nobletold me that pony was his stallion Heltondale Prince. I was impressed and
instantly fell in love with the breed.
Q4 (Tom Lloyd): When did you get your first pony?
A4 (Libby Robinson): I was about 21 when I bought my first pony, a Connemara
cross Thoroughbred. But I always knew I would have a Fell Pony one day. In 1979,
after art college, I started farming and working with horses again.
Q5 (Tom Lloyd): So when did you get your first Fell Pony?
A5 (Libby Robinson): About 22, on a smallholding at the Dorset-Devon border. I
needed a pony to work on the farm—haul bales, muck out, bring feed from five
miles away. I contacted Peggy Crossland (Packway Stud). She told me I
probably wouldn’t find a Fell mare broken to ride or drive, but after months I
found a dealer in Leeds with a Fell mare named Adma Gill Ursula. She had
National Pony Society papers, had been working in a coal cart, and was
sensible. She looked back at me when I put her away—instant connection.
Q6 (Tom Lloyd): So when did you start breeding Fell Ponies?
A6 (Libby Robinson): My first foal was in 1989 from Peggy. By then I was in
Staffordshire, married to a gardener at Stretton Hall. Peggy became a “garden
pony,” helping with haulage, lawn work, etc. I was also training ponies to drive
from other studs, and ran weekend carriage driving courses with Peggy. My first
foal was Globetrotter Robin, sired by Jane Glass’s stallion Weaverhead Rob.
Q7 (Tom Lloyd): After Peggy, did you buy more ponies? Were you looking for
type or bloodlines?
A7 (Libby Robinson): Workability was my main concern—I needed ponies
suitable for courses and driving. In 1989, I found Scargill May, a brown Fell Pony,
difficult to handle, at Southall Market. She was incredibly talented and sensible
once harnessed, even handling heavy traffic in London.
3. Professional Opportunities and WorkQ8 (Tom Lloyd): Did you continue breeding or did other opportunities come
along?
A8 (Libby Robinson): I was invited to work at the Black Country Museum in
Dudley to establish a working carters yard. I lived on-site in Victorian costume,
managing ponies and equipment. Later, I moved to Calbeck in Cumbria,
continued carriage driving, and built experience with a tandem team using
Precious and Peggy.
Q9 (Tom Lloyd): So you’ve been gallivanting around and your prefix is
Globetrotter—why “Globetrotter”?
A9 (Libby Robinson): Because I couldn’t afford land initially. We bought a small
farm near Limoges in France. I took three mares to France, including Dean
Dimitri. I then found a stallion, Dean Tiviot, 12 years old, ride and drive, to sire my
first French-born foals.
Q10 (Tom Lloyd): How many ponies were you breeding in France?
A10 (Libby Robinson): Up to 26–27 ponies, including those bred after returning
to the UK in 2018.
4. Returning Ponies to Cumbria
Q11 (Tom Lloyd): How did you get the herd back onto a fell in Cumbria?
A11 (Libby Robinson): In 2017, I realized the breed’s foundation needed support. I
corresponded with multiple organisations (National Trust, Rare Breed Survival
Trust, Wildlife Trusts) and found a contact at Holker Hall willing to provide
grazing rights. After 18 months, all paperwork was sorted. We transported 18
horses, 5 carriages, 11 ponies in one trip.
Q12 (Tom Lloyd): Can you explain ownership of commons and how fell rights
work?
A12 (Libby Robinson): Fell rights come with the land, dating back to the 13th
century. Landowners kept mineral rights; farmers kept rights to vegetation and
animals. The Commons Registration Act 1969 formalized rights in officialvolumes, listing numbers of sheep, cows, ponies, etc. Rights can be converted
(e.g., cattle to ponies) with approval from the estate and registry office.
5. Driving and Competitions
Q13 (Tom Lloyd): You and David drive, but you’ve also competed—tell me about
that.
A13 (Libby Robinson): Precious was my competitive partner. I learned
coachman style from Caroline Dale-Leach, who ran a major carriage driving
school. In 2014, in France, I built fitness with a pair of ponies to compete in driven
pony classes. We qualified for international events and were awarded the Duke
of Edinburgh prize for driving by the Fell Pony Society.
6. Heritage Work and Promotion
Q14 (Tom Lloyd): You’ve set up heritage exhibitions—tell me about that.
A14 (Libby Robinson): At Reg Ed, with Sarah Dunning’s support, we ran an
exhibition for Fell Pony hill breeders. 9,448 people visited. This inspired my next
goal: a permanent Fell Pony Heritage Centre with a herd, apprenticeships,
student research (University of Cumbria), grazing rights, and public education.
Q15 (Tom Lloyd): Where are you happiest?
A15 (Libby Robinson): On the fell with my ponies. They belong there and are part
of the ecology. They are integral to regenerative agriculture, soil health,
biodiversity, and manure cycles. Research shows ponies uniquely support the
ecosystem through grazing, dung, and biodiversity enhancement.
7. Quick-Fire Questions
Q16 (Tom Lloyd): Ride or drive?
A16 (Libby Robinson): Drive.
Q17 (Tom Lloyd): Favorite pony or line?A17 (Libby Robinson): Scargill May (1983–2013). Beautiful, correct Fell Pony type,
versatile, and did incredible work.
Q18 (Tom Lloyd): Color preference?
A18 (Libby Robinson): Brown.
Libby Robinson – Answers Reference
for BOEI
Source: Interview with Tom Lloyd, Fell Pony Podcast
1. Early Life & First Encounters with Ponies
• Born on a farm in County Donegal, Ireland, to a retired army father. Farm
had 30 dairy cows; early memories of teamwork between men and horses
hauling milk inspired lifelong interest in working ponies.
• First encounter with Fell Ponies at age 8 in Kentmere, Lake District. Met a
black pony (later revealed as Heltondale Prince). Fell in love with the
breed.
• Bought first pony at 21, a Connemara cross Thoroughbred, but always
planned to have a Fell Pony.
2. First Fell Pony & Early Breeding
• First Fell Pony: Adma Gill Ursula, purchased from a dealer in Leeds. Worked
in coal cart, National Pony Society papers. Intelligent, sensible, and
bonded immediately with Libby.
• First breeding foal: Globetrotter Robin (1989), sired by Weaverhead Rob
(owned by Jane Glass).• Early breeding focus: workability and temperament to support carriage
driving courses and training programs.
• Weekend courses in Staffordshire teaching people to drive and work
native ponies, using Peggy (her mare) as teaching example.
3. Acquiring Further Ponies & Globetrotter Prefix
• Purchased ponies for workability rather than specific bloodlines.
• Scargill May, a brown Fell Pony, noted for handling city traffic and
suitability for driving courses.
• “Globetrotter” prefix chosen because of travel and farm location
constraints. First serious breeding farm purchased near Limoges, France.
• Initial French herd: three mares including Dean Dimitri, and stallion Dean
Tiviot, 12 years old, ride-and-drive. First four foals sired by Dean Tiviot.
4. Herd Management & Returning Ponies to
Cumbria
• Built herd to ~26–27 ponies (including UK foals post-2018).
• Returned herd to Thwaite Common, Cumbria, via grazing rights arranged
with Holker Hall Estate after 18 months of negotiation.
• Transported 18 horses, 5 carriages, harness, and 11 ponies in one move.
• Fell rights background:
◦ Rights originate in the 13th century; vegetation rights for farmers,
minerals for landowners.
◦ Commons Registration Act 1969 formalized animal rights (sheep,
cows, ponies).
◦ Rights can be converted (e.g., cattle to ponies) via estate and
registry office approval.5. Driving & Competitive Work
• Learned coachman style driving from Caroline Dale-Leach.
• Built partnership with Precious, achieving international standards in
driven pony classes in France.
• Awarded Duke of Edinburgh Prize for Driving (2014, Fell Pony Society).
• Developed tandem driving techniques with Precious (leader) and Peggy
(dependent wheeler).
6. Heritage & Promotion Work
• Established Fell Pony exhibition at Reg Ed Centre (Westmorland),
attracting 9,448 visitors.
• Goal: Permanent Fell Pony Heritage Centre with:
◦ Research opportunities (University of Cumbria students involved)
◦ Herd of ponies with grazing rights
◦ Apprenticeships and public education
◦ Emphasis on hill breeders and working pony heritage
• Advocates for integrating ponies into regenerative agriculture,
biodiversity, and landscape management.
7. Ecological & Agricultural Contributions of Ponies
• Fell Ponies occupy a unique grazing niche:
◦ Consume young shoots and dead grasses.
◦ Contribute to soil fertility via dung, supporting fungi, insects, and
bacteria.
• Example: Gaubra Hall Farm uses four Fell Ponies with dairy Shorthorns and
Cunnally pigs for integrated grazing and soil health management.• Ponies historically supported horticulture via dung collection for vegetable
and fruit production in urban areas.
8. Personal Preferences & Insights
• Where happiest: On the fell with ponies, participating in the ecology.
• Quick-fire preferences:
◦ Ride or drive: Drive
◦ Favorite pony: Scargill May (1983–2013)
◦ Preferred color: Brown
• Believes Fell Ponies are essential for modern farming, science, and
ecosystem support.
9. Key Themes & Takeaways for BOEI Reference
1. Workability and temperament are primary breeding goals.
2. Conservation of semi-feral herds is essential; returning ponies to historic
fells preserves heritage.
3. Integration into ecosystems: ponies play a vital role in soil health,
biodiversity, and landscape management.
4. Education and promotion: Heritage Centre, courses, apprenticeships, and
public exhibitions maintain awareness and knowledge transfer.
5. International perspective: Observing breed management in France and
Europe helped identify needs for Cumbria-based conservation.
Fell Pony Podcast episode 7
Bert Morland – Fell Pony Knowledge
Reference
1. Early Life and Introduction to Fell Ponies
• Bert’s grandfather registered the last Fell pony in his records in 1926. The
ponies were used as general work ponies on the farm.
• Bert was long-reining ponies by age 10 and mowing himself with ponies
by age 11. The ponies were “general purpose” rather than show ponies.
• At age 18, Bert worked for a farmer, Neil Burfield, and first acquired
unregistered ponies sired by Storm Boy (by Joe Maxlhead).
• Mentors such as Harry Wales and Joe Baxter influenced his understanding
of traditional Fell ponies.
• Joe Baxter, as a “stallion walker,” traveled to service mares at multiple
farms. This was due to the low number of stallions kept by farmers.
2. Starting in Breeding
• First registered pony acquired at 23 for breeding purposes.
• Focused on good movers from the start.
• Father was a skilled horseman; emphasized calm, fearless handling as
essential qualities for working with ponies.
• Early advice from Ted Benson helped guide breeding choices.
3. Fell Ponies in the 1950s
• Significant herds: Tommy Thompson, Aspen Gate, Nobles, and Harry
Wales.
• Many ponies were unregistered; market for work ponies diminished with
tractors.• Pit ponies were a common use: buyers such as Dryden Ward sought
unbroken geldings.
• Acquired Heltondale’s Sunny Boy, initially difficult, but became a valuable
working and breeding pony.
4. Focus on Grey Ponies
• Breeding greys was partly to preserve the colour, as they were rare.
• Selection focused on conformation over colour, with correct legs,
movement, and overall type being priorities.
5. Breeding Principles
• Conformation first: legs, shoulder, neck, and correct head size.
• Shoulder slope determines movement and back length; short back is
preferred.
• Stallions must have good round feet, flat bone, correct length, and short
backs.
• Always consider outcrosses when breeding closely related ponies (e.g.,
half-brother × half-sister).
• Aim to improve the breed incrementally by selecting for all points: joints,
head, broad flat nostrils, and overall type.
6. Herd Management
• Bert keeps four distinct families within the Lunesdale herd.
• Uses stallions to introduce desired qualities across families.
• Prioritizes keeping stallions and mares within the herd rather than relying
on external stock.
• Occasionally swaps stallions with other breeders to maintain genetic
diversity.7. Pony Characteristics and Selection
• Look at foals’ legs first, then shoulder, neck, and head.
• Emphasis on the short line under the neck (jaw to breast) and long line on
top (withers to back of ears).
• Movement is dependent on conformation; straight shoulders limit walk
and stride.
• Hardness and survival ability are key traits, especially for ponies living on
fells.
• Breeding aim: 13-2 hh (hands high), correct head, good legs, correct
conformation.
8. Herd Environment and Semi-Feral Ponies
• Semi-feral ponies maintain breed qualities and structural strength better
than lowland paddock-bred ponies.
• Strong hocks and round bone are associated with fells-born ponies.
• Overbreeding or improper environment can lead to deterioration of
traditional Fell traits.
9. Advice for New Breeders
• Start with 1–2 mares of good conformation, flat bone, correct legs, and
movement.
• Choose the right stallion to complement the mare’s qualities.
• Focus on maintaining type and improving specific points.
10. Personal Insights and Favourites
• Favourite pony: Loonsdale Rebecca, excellent head carriage and
movement.
• Also valued Hildair Princess.• Preference for hardy colours like dark brown, considered “the hardest
pony” in terms of survival on the fells.
• Enjoys seeing ponies thrive in semi-feral conditions and values correct
type above all else.
11. Miscellaneous Notes
• Bert’s experience includes handling Dales ponies, noting their difference in
size and movement.
• Recognizes the importance of maintaining height limits to preserve breed
characteristics.
• Passion for Fell ponies persisted even when his focus shifted temporarily
due to life changes.
Summary for BOEI Reference
Bert Morland’s insights provide a practical, hands-on perspective on Fell Pony
breeding, conformation, and herd management, especially:
1. Maintaining breed type and conformation over colour or pedigree alone.
2. Selecting for movement, shoulder slope, and short backs as indicators of
soundness.
3. Keeping semi-feral herds to preserve structural integrity and breed
character.
4. Using multiple family lines and careful stallion selection to improve
genetic quality while preventing inbreeding.
5. Emphasizing hardiness and survivability, particularly for ponies living on
the fells.Complete Q&A from Bert Morland Podcast Tom Lloyd asking, Bert
Morland answering
1. Tom: Hey, how you doing? Welcome to series two of the Fell Pony podcast.
Bert: I'm fine.
2. Tom: I know you still keep a few mares, Bert. Have they all foaled yet? Bert:
One to foal.
3. Tom: So tell me about them. What have you had? Bert: Five dayless mares,
fourths foaled, four colts. Eight fell mares involved, seven foaled, one to
foal and four finished, three colts.
4. Tom: Okay, doing all right then. Bert:
5. Tom: So were your family farmers and horsemen? Did they keep fell
ponies? Bert: Yeah, my grandfather registered the last I can see in records
1926. And so they would have kept that on the farm for doing just work?
6. Tom: Yeah, it would be work ponies, yeah. Bert: I was teaching them to do
general farm work on the hill farm, yeah.
7. Tom: I read in your book, Bert, that at age 10 you were long reining ponies
and by 11 you were mowing yourself with a pair of ponies. Bert: Yes, I can
remember that. They were, off dayless mares, they were more general
purpose than a pony. Under 15 hands, they were like, they called them
then general purpose.
8. Tom: So when did you first, I mean you said your grandfather had a fell,
when did you first really get into the world of fell ponies then? Bert: I was
always interested and at 18 I worked for a farmer, Neil Burfield, and he
used to graze one or two large, bigger than fell ponies. And he met up with
Penrith Market every week with one or two friends and he heard of two
breeds of them. I bought two, they were both by horse Joe Maxhead,
Storm Boy.
9. Tom: Storm Boy, yeah I've heard of Storm Boy, yeah. Bert: Yeah, but they
weren't registered and that's the first ones I had.
10. Tom: When I first went around, I met Harry Wales at Penrith on a Tuesday,
market day, and I said, at the moment, what is the most ideal fell pony?
Bert: Well he says, Storm Boy, if you can go and see him, that's the mosttraditional fell pony. So I went all the way to near Keswick where he was
and I saw Storm Boy in his flesh. He was born the year before me.
11. Tom: Ah, so Joe Baxter, was he the stallion walker, Joe Baxter, or was that
somebody else? Bert: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's Joe. There won't be that
many people alive now that would know about Joe Baxter, the stallion
walker.
12. Tom: Can you tell me a bit about him and his ponies and how that
worked? Bert: When I first went around, he would travel for about three
years I think, but he would travel in a Dales pony, that's called Master John.
He was later in the Dales sorority and he was using, he wasn't my same
corporation, but Storm Boy was. Storm Boy was your type, but Master
John, so he had both, he had Storm Boy and Master John.
1
13. Tom: And so when you say he was a stallion walker, was that literally
walking from stud to stud? Bert: Well, he came to Teebley to Jim
Thomson's and George Potter of Breethedale on the train and got off the
train and came to round for it to Jim's ponies and he went to Breethedale.
There were maybe six or eight mares for him, but he came on the train.
14. Tom: So would that be because there were people who had mares and
didn't want to keep a stallion and so he was just doing a service? Bert:
Well, no, but there wasn't many stallions kept. They're a nuisance to be
quite honest, the most farmers. People would know he was coming and
what, stay with you for a week or something?
15. Tom: No, he'd stay a day. A day, literally? Bert: Yeah, come in the morning
and go back at daytime.
16. Tom: So what about Joe Baxter? Tell me about Joe Baxter. He must have
been quite a horseman then. Bert: He's quite a character. I bought my first
registered pony at 23.
17. Tom: And was that to start breeding or was that just to have as a
workhorse? Bert: No, it was to start breeding and the mother of a little
Richard, he was a town end steward and he's a sire of town end flash and
another good man I can't think of, a brilliant mover.18. Tom: You were getting into the good movers and the good ponies right
from the start then? Bert: Well, I always liked movement. I was told that
good ponies had to move.
19. Tom: Was your father a horseman? Bert: Yeah, good hand with horses, he
broke me in that, yeah.
20. Tom: I think I've heard or read somewhere you described your father as
being quiet kind of manner and totally fearless, which are the qualities
that make a great horseman. And it's interesting that because I'd never
heard anybody else say that you needed to be fearless, but I can
understand that totally. And I wonder whether you just elaborate on that,
why you'd need to be fearless with the ponies? Bert: Well, you mustn't be
nervous, you've got to always look as though you're in control. It's about
lowering your heart rate, isn't it? Even in a really, even in a stressful
situation you've got to just exude an air of calm around the horses.
21. Tom: And you moved to Roundthwaite farming Tee Bay Gorge before the
motorway was built? Bert: 1956.
22. Tom: So what was life like back then on a hill farm on the edge of the
Howgills before the motorway? Bert: You had to work to earn a living.
23. Tom: And that was, were you sheep farming? Bert: Yes, sheep as well as
cattle.
24. Tom: And did you do shepherding with your ponies? Bert: Yes, I used to
break about four in every summer for a soldier to a lady at Pooner Bridge
called Winnie Graham. Gave her a fortnight's trial, never want to come
back. When I went up the fellow on bareback at most nights, they were
ready to work.
25. Tom: So if you go back to when you started breeding, did you have an
idea of the direction you wanted to go in? Bert: Well, I met him with a man
called Ted Benson, Adam Curtis. He was a
2
very, very knowledgeable fellow and he kept me right in a lot of breeding points.
He was a very clever man.
26. Tom: But you would have had an idea in your head of what a fell pony
should look like I guess? Bert: Yeah, but I got benefited more by hisknowledge. By Ted Benson? I've never met anybody else to describe him
like him. He jumped at me to talk sometimes, but he was an interesting
fellow when he got to talk.
27. Tom: I know a few fell pony breeders like that, but once you get them
standing in front of a pony, you can't stop them talking about it. Bert: Yeah.
28. Tom: What ponies were around back then? In the 50s, how many big
herds of fell ponies were there? Bert: Tommy Thompson, Aspen Gate,
Nobles and Harry Wales. That was what herds was.
29. Tom: Well, Harry Wales used to say he had 12 mares. I just know what he
told me. Tommy Thompson and Nobles would have 20 mares each. And
there would have been herds of unregistered ponies back then still, were
there? Bert: Well, the Aspen Gate ponies, they didn't register them after a
certain date because they weren't worth any more registered than
unregistered.
30. Tom: This is in the 50s after the tractors came in when the market just
dropped out for horses, is that right? Bert: Yeah.
31. Tom: But there was seldom a four-year-old gelding worth more than
fillies. Bert: In the 1950s, through KBC went for pit ponies.
32. Tom: Ah, for the pit ponies. Ah, okay. The buyer was a man called Dryden
Ward. And so he was buying broken geldings to go straight down to work
in the pits? Bert: No, no. Unbroken.
33. Tom: Unbroken. Bert: Unbroken.
34. Tom: So unbroken geldings were worth more than mares and fillies? Bert:
At four-year-old, yeah.
That would be four-year-old.
35. Tom: And did they just want geldings working down the pits? Is that why?
Bert: They must have had geldings. And I know there were certain stallions,
but the ones he was looking for was mostly geldings.
36. Tom: And then at some point you bought Heltondale's Sunny Boy, didn't
you? Who I think was a wild one when he came to you but ended up being
a great shepherding pony, is that right? Bert: Yeah. He was a handful. I
bought him along with Ted Benson. He was joined on. Ted, he was in as
well as me. He was 42 pounds when we bought him.37. Tom: And was that a lot of money back then? Bert: It seemed to be plenty.
38. Tom: So what was it about Heltondale's Sunny Boy that drew you to him?
Bert: He was a good
mover and four great legs. The only place where he was rather weak in
the neck.
39. Tom: So you mentioned about ponies going down the pits, but who else
was buying ponies then? You know, if you were starting to get into
breeding, what was the market? Who was buying
3
fell ponies in the 1950s? Bert: Well Dryden Ward was the main buyer. He bought
in Kirby Stadium. He was a timber merchant from Woolseyham. I can't think of
anybody else that bought them to go down the pits.
40. Tom: So people weren't buying them like they are now for pleasure riding
and driving? Bert: No, no, no. That was the main sales job was pit ponies.
41. Tom: So back then, whose ponies did you admire and look up to? Bert:
Harry Wales loved the ponies.
42. Tom: Did you know Harry? Were you able to kind of go and talk to him
about ponies and see his ponies? Bert: I used to meet him at Penrith
Market on a Tuesday. A very interesting man to talk to was Harry. Very
interesting man.
43. Tom: And of course, you know, most of the back then and even now
actually a lot of the breeders would have been sheep farmers as well as
pony men. But the pony men are a little bit of a different breed, aren't
they? So you would have connected with him, I guess, back then. Bert:
Well, he was good to talk to. A nice gentleman was Harry.
44. Tom: And quite early on, you decided to get into breeding greys, didn't
you, with Mountain Mist? Bert: Before Mountain Flash, there was, got down
to two grey mares in this size, see? And Peggy Croston was the secretary
then. And they both had called foals. I finished up owning them both, later
years.
45. Tom: What was it about the greys? Was it the fact that there were so few
of them around that drew you to the greys? Bert: Well, they were going to
die out if somebody didn't do something, yeah.4
Bert Morland – Lunesdale Fell Ponies
• “If I bring a pony in that’s been on lowland, it can take it from one to two
years to acclimatise.” – Bert Morland
• “They want to be hillbred, really.” – Bert Morland
• “You’re not guaranteed, if you put them all to different stallions, to get a
correct colt.” – Bert Morland
Hey, how you doing? Welcome to series two of the Fell Pony podcast. I'm Tom Lloyd and it's really lovely to have you here again. As ever, I'm really looking forward to today's show. I've been trying to record this one for a while now. We're going to go into the finer points of breeding with my guest whose credentials in the show ring tell you that anything he doesn't know about breeding fell ponies isn't worth knowing. So I would like to introduce you to today's guest, Bert Moorland, judge and breeder of the Lunesdale Fell Ponies who have won shows at the highest levels. So Bert, how are you doing? I'm fine. I know you still keep a few mares, Bert. Have they all foaled yet? One to foal. So tell me about them. What have you had? Five dayless mares, fourths foaled, four colts. Eight fell mares involved, seven foaled, one to foal and four finished, three colts. Okay, doing all right then. Okay, so Bert, I'd like to go right back to the start if that's okay. So were your family farmers and horsemen? Did they keep fell ponies? Yeah, my grandfather registered the last I can see in records 1926. And so they would have kept that on the farm for doing just work? Yeah, it would be work ponies, yeah. I was teaching them to do general farm work on the hill farm, yeah. I read in your book, Bert, that at age 10 you were long reining ponies and by 11 you were mowing yourself with a pair of ponies. Yes, I can remember that. They were, off dayless mares, they were more general purpose than a pony. Under 15 hens, they were like, they called them then general purpose. So when did you first, I mean you said your grandfather had a fell, when did you first really get into the world of fell ponies then? I was always interested and at 18 I worked for a farmer, Neil Burfield, and he used to graze one or two large, bigger than fell ponies. And he met up with Penrith Market every week with one or two friends and he heard of two breeds of them. I bought two, they were both by horse Joe Maxlhead, Storm Boy. Storm Boy, yeah I've heard of Storm Boy, yeah. Yeah, but they weren't registered and that's the first ones I had. When I first went around, I met Harry Wales at Penrith on a Tuesday, market day, and I said, at the moment, what is the most ideal fell pony? Well he says, Storm Boy, if you can go and see him, that's the most traditional fell pony. So I went all the way to near Kesswick where he was and I saw Storm Boy in his flesh. He was born the year before me. Ah, so Joe Baxter, was he the stallion walker, Joe Baxter, or was that somebody else? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's Joe. There won't be that many people alive now that would know about Joe Baxter, the stallion walker. Can you tell me a bit about him and his ponies and how that worked? When I first went around, he would travel for about three years I think, but he would travel in a dales pony, that's called Master John. He was later in the dales sorority and he was using, he wasn't my same corporation, but Storm Boy was. Storm Boy was your type, but Master John, so he had both, he had Storm Boy and Master John. Yeah, yeah. And so when you say he was a stallion walker, was that literally walking from stud to stud? Well, he came to Teebley to Jim Thomson's and George Potter of Breethedale on the train and got off the train and came to round for it to Jim's ponies and he went to Breethedale. There were maybe six or eight mares for him, but he came on the train. So would that be because there were people who had mares and didn't want to keep a stallion and so he was just doing a service? Well, no, but there wasn't many stallions kept. They're a nuisance to be quite honest, the most farmers. People would know he was coming and what, stay with you for a week or something? No, he'd stay a day. A day, literally? Yeah, come in the morning and go back at day time. So what about Joe Baxter? Tell me about Joe Baxter. He must have been quite a horseman then. He's quite a character. I bought my first registered pony at 23. And was that to start breeding or was that just to have as a workhorse? No, it was to start breeding and the mother of a little Richard, he was a town end steward and he's a sire of town end flash and another good man I can't think of, a brilliant mover. You were getting into the good movers and the good ponies right from the start then? Well, I always liked movement. I was told that good ponies had to move.
Was your father a horseman? Yeah, good hand with horses, he broke me in that, yeah. I think I've heard or read somewhere you described your father as being quiet kind of manner and totally fearless, which are the qualities that make a great horseman. And it's interesting that because I'd never heard anybody else say that you needed to be fearless, but I can understand that totally. And I wonder whether you just elaborate on that, why you'd need to be fearless with the ponies? Well, you mustn't be nervous, you've got to always look as though you're in control. It's about lowering your heart rate isn't it? Even in a really, even in a stressful situation you've got to just exude an air of calm around the horses. Yeah, yeah. And you moved to Roundthwaite farming Tee Bay Gorge before the motorway was built?1956. So what was life like back then on a hill farm on the edge of the Howgills before the motorway? You had to work to earn a living. And that was, were you sheep farming? Yes, sheep as well as cattle. And did you do shepherding with your ponies? Yes, I used to break about four in every summer for a soldier to a lady at Pooner Bridge called Winnie Graham. Gave her a fortnight's trial, never want to come back. When I went up the fellow on bareback at most nights, they were ready to work.
So if you go back to when you started breeding, did you have an idea of the direction you wanted to go in? Well, I met him with a man called Ted Benson, Adam Curtis. He was a very, very knowledgeable fellow and he kept me right in a lot of breeding points. He was a very clever man. But you would have had an idea in your head of what a fell pony should look like I guess? Yeah, but I got benefited more by his knowledge. By Ted Benson? I've never met anybody else to describe him like him. He jumped at me to talk sometimes, but he was an interesting fellow when he got to talk. I know a few fell pony breeders like that, but once you get them standing in front of a pony, you can't stop them talking about it. Yeah. What ponies were around back then? In the 50s, how many big herds of fell ponies were there? Tommy Thompson, Aspen Gate, Nobles and Harry Wales. That was what herds was.
Well, Harry Wales used to say he had 12 mares. I just know what he told me. Tommy Thompson and Nobles would have 20 mares each. And there would have been herds of unregistered ponies back then still, were there? Well, the Aspen Gate ponies, they didn't register them after a certain date because they weren't worth any more registered than unregistered. So this is in the 50s after the tractors came in when the market just dropped out for horses, is that right?Yeah. But there was seldom a four-year-old gelding worth more than fillies. In the 1950s, through KBC went for pit ponies. Ah, for the pit ponies. Ah, okay. Interesting. The buyer was a man called Dryden Ward. And so he was buying broken geldings to go straight down to work in the pits? No, no. Unbroken. Unbroken.
Unbroken. So unbroken geldings were worth more than mares and fillies? At four-year-old, yeah. That would be four-year-old. And did they just want geldings working down the pits? Is that why? They must have had geldings. And I know there were certain stallions, but the ones he was looking for was mostly geldings. And then at some point you bought Heltondale's Sunny Boy, didn't you? Who I think was a wild one when he came to you but ended up being a great shepherding pony, is that right?
Fell Pony Podcast episode 8
Fell Pony Podcast – Jennifer Morrissey
Interview
Host: Tom Lloyd
Guest: Jennifer Morrissey – Owner of Willow Trail Fell Ponies, Author, Smallholder,
Rare Breeds Enthusiast
Location: South Dakota, USA
1. Herd and Landscape in South Dakota
Q1: So as I said in the introduction, you're over in the States and you've set up a
little herd of fell ponies over there. So just tell me a little bit about the landscape
and where you are, what it's like out there.
A1: I am in South Dakota, just west of the middle of the continent and east of the
Rocky Mountains. My house is at 4,000 feet, and the pony pasture rises to
around 4,400–4,500 feet, similar in aspect to a fell. It's very dry here, maybe 14
inches of moisture a year, which is very different from where fell ponies are from.
We get snow off and on in the winter. Previously, in Colorado at 9,000 feet, snow
was solid and on the ground for six months a year. So the ponies and I have
made quite a transition in the last couple of years.
Q2: Could you just describe your, would you call it holding over there, your plot,
your farm?
A2: My mares can run on a hill similar to a fell—steep, rugged terrain. I restrict
their grazing in the summer and let them roam full-time in winter. They choose
the trot most of the time and the canter on easier ground. They manage water
sources and snow patches themselves. They have run-in sheds for shelter. I
don’t let them roam fully free yet due to predators—coyotes and mountain lions.
Each pony is too precious to risk losing.
Q3: How many ponies have you got at the minute?
A3: I have 10 ponies: one stallion, three foals, and the rest are mares.
2. First Fell Ponies & Early ExperiencesQ4: Can we go right back to the start—when did you first get involved with fell
ponies? How did this all happen with you?
A4: I was on a small ranch in southern Colorado with a Welsh pony cross, which
could ride, drive, draft, and pack, but I needed something bigger. I had been
stewarding rare breeds and noticed a small article about fell ponies. There were
about 30 on the continent, six in Colorado. I traveled to see them, and six weeks
later I owned two fell ponies—a breeding pair: Sleddle Rose Beauty and a stud
she had bred.
Q5: Did you know anything about fell ponies before that?
A5: No. There isn’t a pony culture in the U.S. At that time, the closest working
pony was the traditional Morgan, which is versatile and well-built. There’s also
the Ojibwe pony in northern Minnesota/Southern Canada, but I didn’t know
about it then.
Q6: You were breeding rare breeds at the time—was that all kinds of animals?
A6: Yes, I had ducks, dairy goats, and turkeys. Over here, we'd call it
smallholding.
Q7: Tell me a little bit about the first ponies you got.
A7: Beauty was 13 when I got her. I tried AI from frozen semen and quickly
learned the realities—it’s not always successful. A friend bred her to a stallion; he
was good-tempered. In 2002, she had a filly. I learned that breeding purebred to
purebred doesn’t always give the type you expect—the colt came from a stallion
producing very large ponies. That was an early lesson on matching mare and
stallion to get desired type.
Q8: So the best with the best doesn't always give you the best?
A8: Absolutely not. You have to have the mare and stallion “click.” Finding
compatible pairs has been my journey since then.
3. Starting a Herd in a New Continent
Q9: Where did you go for your first help when starting?
A9: I traveled from Colorado to Washington state, Pennsylvania, and bought
another mare sight unseen after pedigree research. I discovered she didn’tresemble Beauty. Eventually, I went to Cumbria in 2005, saw ~150 ponies across
breeders and shows, and found a stallion that gave me hope. Later that year, I
imported his nephew, Guards Apollo, and started producing ponies I was proud
of.
Q10: Had you looked at other breeds before deciding on fells?
A10: Yes, I looked at Norwegian Fjord horses and bought a gelding. My main
interest was rare breeds; fells became my focus when available.
Q11: How did your research into stud books and pedigrees start?
A11: With Beauty, I realized she was related within three generations to 70% of
licensed stallions worldwide. That indicated a breeding bottleneck. Initially, I did
this on paper, then automated with software. Pedigrees aren’t always accurate
—some bloodlines have been selected out historically.
Q12: Why did you focus on rare bloodlines?
A12: Initially, to maintain genetic diversity. Later, mostly because people ask. DNA
testing shows the breed has healthy diversity. Some bloodlines are rare
because they weren’t typical; culling is part of breeding.
4. The Enclosure Scheme & Lessons Learned
Q13: Can we talk more about the enclosure scheme and what you’ve learned?
A13: The enclosure scheme narrowed the gene pool. Several stallions had
outsized influence, e.g., Heltindale Roemer bred 31 mares in 1948; his son Roland
Boy, Storm Boy, and others continued this pattern. This increased risk of
narrowing genetics and may have contributed to health issues like full
immunodeficiency syndrome.
Q14: What lessons could we learn for future enclosures?
A14: Don’t use the same stallion every year. Ensure stallions are unrelated or
from different lines. You can also introduce outside blood if needed. The
enclosure goal must be clear—is it numbers, type, or both? Modern numbers
mean registered ponies aren’t lacking, but fell-running herds are in danger.
5. Importance of Fell Bred PoniesQ15: Do fell bred ponies matter?
A15: Yes. Both fell bred and non-fell bred ponies matter. Fell bred ponies
maintain type, enable political influence to preserve fell running, and support
breeding outcrosses. Studies show at shows, fell bred ponies are more likely to
win: 71% at UK shows, 61% at southern shows.
Q16: Why do we need ponies at all?
A16: We all have roles to play in the breed. Fell ponies are landscape-adapted
and breed-standard-adapted. Volunteer communities maintain registrations,
conservation, and breeding. Non-fell bred ponies support awareness and
advocacy.
6. Type, Shows, and Breed Stewardship
Q17: How does human stewardship shape the breed?
A17: Stewards influence type through selective breeding. Show ponies increase
visibility but can be judged incorrectly. Traditional fell ponies require an active
trot, not a long, low canter. Education of judges and breeders is vital to maintain
type.
Q18: What’s the market like in the U.S.?
A18: Market has been hot since COVID. People want ponies for trails, showing,
dressage, and smallholding work. Older women are inspired by Her Majesty’s
riding of fell ponies.
Q19: How many domestically bred ponies are there in North America?
A19: About 700.
Q20: Is there a risk the North American herd diverges from the British herd?
A20: Yes, as with American vs British Shetlands. Rare bloodlines research shows
divergence due to founder effects. It’s only a problem if type diverges.
Preserving type allows use as outcrosses for UK bloodlines.
Q21: Are small-scale breeders declining?
A21: Yes, measured by number of ponies from studs with ≤3 foals/year. While
small hill breeders exist, they cannot compensate for the loss of larger herds.Q22: Have you had non-fell ponies that didn’t survive in the landscape?
A22: Yes, some were too spooky and wouldn’t survive on rugged terrain. Fell
bred ponies have instinct and awareness that allows survival in harsh
conditions.
7. Challenges of Setting up a Herd Overseas
Q23: What are the challenges of importing and breeding ponies in the U.S.?
A23: Import decisions are individual; there’s no collective strategy. Some
breeders refuse exports. Importing ponies removes them from the UK gene pool
permanently. Now, with ~700 domestic ponies, entire herds can be North
American-bred.
Q24: Are there societies in the U.S.?
A24: Yes, two: Fell Pony Society of North America (FPSNA) and Fell Pony
Conservancy of North America. FPSNA is most active, publishes newsletters, and
runs a performance program similar to the UK.
8. Fell Pony in Cumbria & World Heritage Site
Q25: The Lake District World Heritage Site didn’t mention the fell pony—
thoughts?
A25: True, but the site conserves cultural landscape—the agro-pastoral and
industrial heritage—where fell ponies played a critical role. Our job is
documenting ponies’ historical roles, e.g., pack horse history, to highlight their
contribution.
9. Quick-Fire Questions
Q26: Ride or drive?
A26: Ride.
Q27: Pack or draft?
A27: Draft.Q28: Favorite pony or line in history?
A28: Sleddle ponies—my foundation mare was one.
Q29: Favorite color: black, brown, bay, or gray?
A29: Black or brown with black points; bays look great on landscape in
Colorado, black against snow looked awesome.
Reference Document – Jennifer
Morrissey on Fell Ponies
Source: Interview on Fell Pony Podcast, Host: Tom Lloyd
1. Herd & Landscape Management (South Dakota,
USA)
• South Dakota site: 4,000–4,500 ft, dry (~14 inches precipitation/year),
rugged, fell-like pasture.
• Ponies adapt to seasonal grazing: summer restricted; winter free-range
on hill.
• Ponies navigate terrain intelligently, balancing grazing, water, and snow.
• Predation: Coyotes and mountain lions present; full free-range grazing not
yet possible.
• Fencing and run-in sheds used for protection and shelter.
• Current herd: 10 ponies (1 stallion, 3 foals, 6 mares).
Insight for BOEI: Environmental adaptation is crucial; predator management
and pasture layout directly affect herd welfare and survival instincts.2. Introduction to Fell Ponies
• First involvement: Southern Colorado, initially owned a Welsh pony cross;
sought a bigger, versatile pony.
• Initial exposure: 30 ponies in North America (6 in Colorado).
• Acquired first fell ponies: Sleddle Rose Beauty (13 years old) and a stud she
had bred.
• Knowledge of fell ponies in the U.S. at the time: minimal, no established
pony culture; closest were Morgans and Norwegian Fjords.
• First breeding lessons: AI and frozen semen are not guaranteed; mating
purebred ponies does not always yield desired type; mare-stallion
compatibility is critical.
Insight for BOEI: Early selection and evaluation of type and temperament are
critical when starting a herd, especially in a non-native environment.
3. Herd Establishment & Importing Ponies
• Early imports: Sourced ponies from UK after researching pedigrees to
avoid inbreeding.
• Traveled extensively in Cumbria to study type and stock.
• Developed foundation breeding with imported stallions (Guards Apollo,
Mary Shear).
• Mentorship: Late Joe Lankake guided her via weekly calls, focusing on
working fell pony traits (temperament, conformation).
• Challenges: Limited export availability from UK; imported ponies are
removed permanently from UK gene pool.
• Current U.S. population: ~700 ponies (mix of imports and domestically
bred).Insight for BOEI: Establishing a genetically viable herd abroad requires careful
selection, study of existing bloodlines, and mentorship from experienced
breeders.
4. Breeding, Type & Genetic Management
• Early research revealed breeding bottleneck: foundation mare related to
~70% of global stallions within three generations.
• Developed rare bloodlines research to maintain genetic diversity.
• DNA testing indicates healthy genetic diversity in the breed despite
historical bottlenecks.
• Type matters: Visual and functional traits prioritized over pedigree alone.
• Rare bloodlines may be rare due to historical culling; not all should be
preserved blindly.
• Enclosure scheme: Historically narrowed gene pool; lessons for future use:
avoid repeated use of the same stallion, manage unrelated stallions,
possibly introduce outside blood.
Insight for BOEI: Combining pedigree research, DNA validation, and type
assessment is essential to preserve functional characteristics and prevent
inbreeding.
5. Fell Pony Conservation & Community Roles
• Fell ponies are both landscape-adapted and breed-standard-adapted;
conservation strategies differ.
• Fell bred ponies are critical for maintaining type, heritage, and breeding
outcrosses.
• Non-fell bred ponies also matter: visibility, market, and advocacy
strengthen breed recognition.
• Volunteer community essential for registration, breeding oversight, and
conservation.• Stewardship: Breeders influence the breed as much as landscape;
education is required to maintain traditional movement (active trot) and
avoid selection for show trends (long/low canter).
Insight for BOEI: Maintaining type requires active stewardship, breeder
collaboration, and community engagement.
6. Show, Market & Use
• Market in North America: trail riding, showing, dressage, smallholding work,
and occasional draft/pack.
• Popularity influenced by royal visibility (e.g., Her Majesty riding fell ponies).
• Shows: Fell bred ponies dominate placements (~71% in UK, 61% in southern
shows).
• Type must be preserved despite pressures from show standards.
Insight for BOEI: Market demand can be leveraged for breed promotion, but
shows must reflect historical functionality, not just aesthetics.
7. Small Scale & Landscape Survival
• Small-scale breeders producing ≤3 foals/year: declining. Larger herds
cannot be fully replaced by smaller operations.
• Survival instincts differ by breed/type: Fell bred ponies demonstrate
awareness and self-preservation on rugged terrain; non-fell ponies may
fail to cope.
• Example: A non-fell pony spooked by chipmunks, unsuitable for rugged
landscape; contrast with Sleddle Rose Beauty’s adaptive awareness.
Insight for BOEI: Landscape adaptation and temperament are key traits for hill/
fell-bred conservation.
8. North American vs UK Herds
• Risk of divergence exists, similar to American vs British Shetlands.• Rare bloodline representation in U.S. and Dutch herds shows divergence
due to founder effects.
• Divergence only problematic if type is lost; otherwise, can provide
outcross opportunities for UK stock.
Insight for BOEI: Monitoring type consistency is critical when managing
geographically separated populations.
9. Fell Pony Cultural & Historical Significance
• Fell ponies historically tied to agro-pastoral and industrial heritage of
Cumbria (pack ponies, transport, smallholding work).
• World Heritage Site conservation: while not explicitly mentioned, preserved
landscapes support fell pony heritage.
• Ongoing research: Pack pony history, local valleys (Furness, Dudden
Valley, Eskdale), first-hand fieldwork to document historical use.
Insight for BOEI: Heritage and landscape conservation directly support breed
preservation; historical research can reinforce advocacy and policy support.
10. Quick-Fire & Personal Notes
• Ride vs Drive: Ride preferred.
• Pack vs Draft: Draft (practical work done historically and personally).
• Favorite line: Sleddle ponies (foundation mare family).
• Favorite colors: Black or brown with black points; environmental aesthetics
influence preference.
Key Takeaways for BOEI Reference
1. Landscape adaptation is essential—ponies must survive harsh terrain
and predator presence.2. Type preservation takes precedence over pedigree alone; functional
traits must be monitored.
3. Genetic diversity requires careful management: rare bloodlines research
+ DNA validation.
4. Importing and establishing herds overseas requires careful selection,
mentorship, and awareness of global gene pool implications.
5. Volunteer and community roles are critical for breed stewardship and
advocacy.
6. Historical documentation supports conservation, breed promotion, and
policy influence.
7. Small-scale breeders cannot compensate for loss of larger herds; their
output must be supported strategically.
8. Market visibility (shows, media) supports public awareness but must not
compromise type.
Fell Pony Podcast episode 9
Fell Pony Podcast – Nicola Evans
Interview (Tom Lloyd)
Guest: Nicola Evans, Helm Side Ponies
Host: Tom Lloyd
Topics: Ecology, conservation grazing, pony development, handling, herd
management
1. Sale Visit
Q: I saw you at the sale, I didn't really get to chat because you looked really
busy, but did you go home with anything?
A: I did, yes. It's almost inevitable, isn't it? Lots of people to talk to and yeah, lots
of lovely ponies.
Q: And the prices were good?
A: They were, great. About time.
2. Conservation Grazing Setup
Q: You're involved with conservation grazing in quite a big way. So I'm guessing
you've got ponies all over the place, is that right?
A: Yes, it can certainly be like that at some times of the year.
Q: How many ponies have you got right now?
A: I haven't bought one at the weekend, we're up to 21.
Q: Can you describe your setup? Where do you keep the ponies? How does it
work?
A:
• Grazing on the Helm, Oxenholme (7 ponies year-round) – base grazing.
• Ponies move around nature reserves and private land for short-term
grazing (1–2 months).
• Home land: ~25 acres, used as fallback.
• Additional rented land: just over 20 acres north of Kendal.• Result: Ponies are “here, there, and everywhere.”
Q: I hadn't realised you got, there's so much grazing you had there.
A: It's really grown; total area hasn’t been added up, but significant.
Q: I'm guessing horses that might not come to you as being good to box won't
take them long.
A: Yes, they quickly learn to lead, load, and catch. Usually keen for fresh grazing.
3. Getting Started with Fell Ponies
Q: How did you first get involved with fell ponies?
A:
• Early Pony Club riding on a fell pony; it followed bicycles, good for long
rides.
• Later rode Exmoor ponies at university.
• Returned to Cumbria, wanted ponies suitable for conservation grazing. Fell
ponies were ideal.
Q: When you decided to get into some fells, where did you go? Did you buy a
couple? Did you borrow some? How did that start?
A: Acquired three 10-month-old ponies in the same weekend. Found breeders
through word of mouth and adverts.
Q: Do you have any stables?
A: Initially, nothing. Home land had 10 acres with other horses. Currently, a 12x24
ft field shelter and a small concrete yard. Everything else lives outside.
Q: So these three youngsters you got, was the intention to get them for
conservation grazing?
A: Yes, initially for friends in Silverdale who wanted ponies for grazing. Later
expanded with Helm grazing; three became seven, numbers gradually
increased.
4. The Helm Grazing
Q: What sort of size space is that, and how many ponies do you have there?
A:• Helm: ~65 acres, prominent hill near Kendal, highly used by the public.
• Previously sheep-grazed; now 7 ponies and 7 young cattle year-round.
• Benefits: Open grassland maintained; practical and stock welfare
considerations.
5. Issues and Practicalities
Q: Can we talk about some of the issues and practicalities then, if you're going
to get into conservation grazing?
A:
• Public access: balancing friendly, approachable ponies without begging
behavior.
• Ponies must be easy to handle; avoid high-sided pens or sedation.
• Sites often difficult to access, small, or lack water supply. Ponies handle
paths, boardwalks, rivers, etc.
• Overgrown areas: ponies adapt to woodland rides, cliffs, bogs, ditches;
usually sensible, self-preserving.
Q: What are the benefits of the ponies then? Is there a difference between how
the sheep and cattle graze?
A:
• Ponies and cattle similar weight; low-level poaching beneficial for seed
niches.
• Ponies selective grazers: leave flowering plants, browse trees and scrub,
maintain open grasslands, provide structural variety.
Q: Are you involved on any sites which are in a higher-level stewardship scheme
or anything?
A:
• Most sites are in stewardship schemes; helps organize grazing.
• Timing important: growing season vs. winter grazing, to allow flowering
and seed set.Q: What do they do best on, from what you've seen?
A:
• Ponies adapt well to all terrain: peat bogs, moorland, limestone, woodland.
• High ground exposure: lean but fit, tough, resilient.
6. Managing Distributed Herds
Q: How do you work that with ponies all over the place?
A:
• Volunteers help monitor boundaries and welfare.
• Site managers check stock and water supplies.
• Regular inspection ensures health and safety.
• Non-commercial animals are practical for rough grazing sites;
commercial cattle impractical for small sites.
Q: You're essentially getting free grazing?
A: Minimal charge to cover diesel; education and experience are main benefits.
Q: Are the ponies promoting the breed?
A: Yes, Helm ponies are visible to the public and on social media; “meet the
pony” open days promote breed awareness.
7. Ecological Background
Q: Tell me about your background as an ecologist. How did you get to this point?
A:
• Mother is an ecologist; grew up with wildlife.
• ~20 years in fieldwork.
• Conservation grazing links wildlife interest with ponies.
• Fell ponies: traditional, hardy breeds essential for heritage and ecology.8. Pony Handling and Education
Q: So you've got all of these ponies all around the place. Why? What do you do
with them?
A:
• Ponies receive basic handling: lead, load, hoof care, public interaction.
• Then used as riding ponies; exposure to traffic, obstacles, and varied
terrain.
• No arena; training done on lanes.
Q: Do you have a process for new ponies when they arrive?
A:
• Each pony different.
• Introduced in small groups, learn from older ponies.
• Gradual exposure to handling, grooming, riding.
• Positive reinforcement; quit while ahead.
Q: How do you start with minimally handled ponies?
A:
• Let them learn from herd dynamics.
• Exposure to public desensitizes them.
• Handle minimally, give time, work step by step.
9. Breeding
Q: You have bred a couple of ponies; tell me about your exploration into
breeding. You don’t keep a stallion, do you?
A: No, having a stallion with many mares and public complicates life.
Q: If you haven't got a stallion and want to breed, how do you find one?
A:
• Contact breeders; many won’t take visiting mares.• Consider relation to mare; choose less-related stallion.
• Example: Mare in foal to Loomsdale Beckham; great result.
Q: How do you gain trust with minimally handled ponies?
A:
• Allow pony time and space.
• Use herd learning.
• Gradual exposure to handling, trailers, and feeding routines.
• Example: Yearling colt cautiously handled, now affectionate and
confident.
Q: How do you manage foals?
A: Minimal handling initially; allow pony to come to handler to maintain
boundaries.
10. Fell Pony Display and Activities
Q: You’ve got other things you get up to, like the Fell Pony Display Team?
A:
• Use ponies for education, promotion, and enjoyment.
• Work with young stock to progress training.
• Participate in camps, shows, holidays, beach rides.
11. Herd Management
Q: Do you ever get all your ponies together at one time?
A: Rarely; more than 6–7 is chaos.
Q: Managing group dynamics – like primary school kids?
A:
• Grouping by age, personality.• Allow youngsters to play with peers; older ponies provide calm role
models.
• Monitor boss of herd: often a mare, sometimes young geldings with strong
character.
12. Quick Questions – One Word Answers
Q: Ride or drive?
A: Ride
Q: Favourite pony or line in the history of the breed?
A: Henry (Helmside Henry)
Q: Black, brown, bay or grey?
A: Bay
Nicola Evans – Reference Notes for
BOEI
Context: Nicola Evans, Helm Side Ponies, conservation grazing, Fell Pony Society
Conservation Subgroup. Focus on pony management, ecology, and
conservation grazing.
1. Conservation Grazing & Herd Management
• Maintains ponies across multiple sites: Helm (base grazing), nature
reserves, private land, and home/rented pastures (~25 + 20 acres).
• Herd size fluctuates; currently 21 ponies.
• Ponies rotated seasonally: some sites occupied only 1–2 months a year.
• Grazing objectives: habitat management, structural variety in vegetation,
preventing scrub/woodland encroachment.
• Volunteers and site managers assist with monitoring, especially on
remote sites.• Public access is a key consideration: ponies must be friendly but not feed-
harassing; easy to catch and handle.
Practical Considerations:
• Sites often challenging: small, overgrown, steep, lack water.
• Ponies are resilient: able to navigate boardwalks, rivers, ditches, cliffs, peat
bogs.
• Herd dynamics important: group size 6–7 for manageability; younger
ponies learn from older ones.
• Pony “boss” can be a mare or young gelding; social hierarchy shifts with
herd composition.
2. Pony Characteristics & Benefits
• Fell ponies are hardy, adaptable to varied terrain (peat bog, moorland,
limestone, woodland, scree slopes).
• Low-level poaching by ponies helps seed germination; selective grazing
maintains open grasslands.
• Ponies browse trees and scrub, creating structural variety.
• Experienced ponies serve as role models for younger ponies, especially for
handling, traffic, and environmental exposure.
• Ponies thrive with minimal interference; they learn from herd and
environment.
3. Pony Education & Handling
• Ponies receive basic handling: leading, loading, hoof care, exposure to the
public.
• No arenas; training occurs in natural settings (lanes, hills, villages).
• New ponies introduced gradually; often in small groups to observe
experienced ponies.• Trust built over time; avoid forcing contact or handling too much,
especially with foals.
• Ponies enjoy exploring; confidence gained through positive experiences,
not coercion.
4. Breeding & Young Stock
• Does not keep a stallion due to complexity with mares and public.
• Breeding via visiting stallions or selecting outside stallions based on
genetics and availability.
• Example: two foals sired by Loomsdale Beckham; offspring healthy,
characterful, ~13 hands, rideable beyond apparent size.
• Young stock handled minimally as foals; encouraged to approach
voluntarily to maintain boundaries.
• Yearlings and minimally handled ponies adapt via herd learning and
gradual exposure.
5. Ecological & Professional Context
• Background: ecologist (~20 years experience), mother also ecologist.
• Conservation grazing combines ecological interest with heritage breeds
like Fell ponies.
• Fell ponies contribute to cultural heritage and ecological management;
traditional breeds ideal for challenging or niche sites.
• Most sites under stewardship schemes: grazing plans follow growth/
flowering cycles for seed set and habitat management.
6. Promotion & Public Engagement
• Ponies act as ambassadors for the breed: Helm ponies visible in public, at
events, on social media.• “Meet the pony” open days engage the public and encourage education
about breed and conservation grazing.
• Ridden ponies learn life skills and confidence through exposure to roads,
traffic, and rough terrain.
7. Key Takeaways for BOEI
• Adaptability: Fell ponies cope with rough terrain, public interaction, and
variable grazing sites.
• Ecological impact: Selective grazing, browsing, and trampling improve
habitat diversity.
• Training method: Herd learning, minimal forced handling, progressive
exposure.
• Herd management: Social dynamics crucial; younger ponies learn from
experienced role models.
• Practical approach: Rotational grazing, volunteer/site manager support,
minimal infrastructure.
• Public interaction: Balance visibility and safety; ponies as living examples
of breed and ecological management.
Fell Pony Podcast episode 10
Ruth Chamberlain
Hey, how you doing? Welcome to the Fell Pony Podcast. My name's Tom Lloyd and it's really lovely to have you here again. On today's show we're going a little bit off-piste to talk about not just fell ponies but also some of the other less well-known native breeds that my guest has spent the last couple of years photographing in their native habitat. So I would like to introduce Ruth Chamberlain who many of you will know through her Instagram account Ruth on the Hoof. Hey Ruth, how you doing? I'm very well, thank you. Good. Now before we start you've got to please excuse I've had a hacking cough all week so my voice is a bit croaky and I understand you've been self-isolating with Covid the last week or so? I have, yes, unfortunately. I'm okay though. Have you made use of the time out? Yeah, I've caught up on a lot of things, a bit of picture processing but still there's not enough time in the world to get through my archive I don't think. I know and the days are short at the minute as well. So Ruth, can you describe to me your set-up, where you are and do you have any ponies at home? Yeah, so well I'm based in Cumbria, like quite a lot of people are I suppose, and I live in Penrith in my own little house here. I don't have any animals at home but I am quite lucky that I've got my mum and dad have got fields and my, well my mum's ponies really, but I do ride them and go and see them and everything. Yeah, so I'm based in Penrith and from there I disperse all over the place. What are the ponies you've got at your mum's?We've got two Highland ponies and a little donkey. Ah donkeys, I love a good donkey. Yeah, I love them too. I don't know a lot about Highlands other than when I've been to the Highland camp at Linnell actually so I'm getting, starting to get my head round them a little bit. Yeah, oh they're great. So look, let's go back to the beginning Ruth, where did this fascination with native ponies come from? Well we've always had native ponies. I had a little Welsh mountain cross I kind of learnt to ride on. My aunt's always had fowl ponies and my mum had horses but moved on to Highlands. Again, just by chance really she kind of got into natives. So we've always kind of had natives and just throughout the years going to horse shows, obviously seeing the fowl ponies and the three Roman ones in the lakes and things, I just, I like to know about them and I've always been a horsey kind of girl growing up. I like to incorporate horses of any kind into anything.
So even when I go on holiday I like to go and see horses or go riding. I went to America a couple of years ago to my friend's ranch and that was great. I just got to basically be a cowboy for a while. So I was in Montana. It's not actually too dissimilar to sort of the common land we have here, you know, sort of very open, quite treeless. But yeah, they've got a big herd of horses and it's known as a dude ranch, which where you have guests can pay to go and stay and ride the horses on trails, look after them and they teach like Pirelli horsemanship there. So I took my camera on my sort of trip of the states really and I went along for a while and you know, I just had a great time. I learnt so much because they do the sort of the Pirelli natural horsemanship. You learn quite a lot about like herd behaviour, structure, how to talk to horses and things. And I went there being a bit of a sceptic about it, but when I see it in action, how it should properly be done, it makes total sense. And I find it very useful when I observe other horses everywhere else. That's really interesting. So, so the, the Pirelli way of being how you are with a horse that, that relates totally to how you are when you're amongst a herd of ponies, native ponies. Yeah. Well, I just, it's sort of the Pirelli way. It's not like being namby pamby about your horse. It's learning how horses communicate with each other and learning how you can use your body language to sort of communicate back to them, or at least understand that horse is not happy with me or that horse is happy with me. Which I think when you're going through a herd of ponies on a common or something, it's very useful to be able to sort of read and understand because, you know, half a tonne of pony coming towards you is one thing, but you know, when you've got 10 of them, it's quite another. Obviously, I do the same in amongst mine. You get to read them quite well. You know, the ears and just how they're standing. And is that the sort of things you're looking at with the Pirelli stuff? Yeah. I mean, obviously I didn't learn that much officially, but I just picked up quite a bit when I was there. Yeah. You'd say like the ears, how they, how they behave with one another and how in particular things like the lead mare will communicate with the herd.
Like she does things like the horses move out of her way. She doesn't move out of their way, that sort of thing. And I think it's actually more translatable when you go to a herd that you don't know particularly well, you can kind of pick out which one's in charge really. And I think that's important to do because obviously if you get the sort of ones at the bottom of the pecking order, they're the ones that tend to get bullied. And if suddenly the lead mare does decide she wants to come over and have a look, she will chase those ones out the way and you could get run over because they're just trying to get out of her way. Whereas I think if you're aware of that, you can obviously put yourself in a position where you're not going to get squashed. Yeah, no, I get that totally. I can see that. So what point did you first encounter fell ponies? Was it, and was there something different about them that appealed to you? Again, well, I've grown up in Cumbria near Colbeck Commons. So I'd see, again, ponies all the time up there. And my aunt and my cousins have always had fell ponies. So I've always known about fell ponies. I don't remember ever not knowing what they were. But yeah, my aunt, I think my aunt probably, she's a really keen fell pony enthusiast. So I think we'd go to the shows and see lots of fell ponies there and we'd just come along. And then eventually we got our Highland, which we got more because we were sort of introduced to mountain and moorland breeds. And the Highland just, we just happened to come across one who turned out to be the right one for us. But yeah, fell ponies just used to go, whenever we used to go out to Mosedale swimming, we could see them on the common there. And obviously all like places like going down past Tee Bay, you'd see them up going down the motorway, you'd see them and yeah, just, just see them around. Like I've always known them and I'm not too far from the Waverhead stud either. So I'd always see them up there. So at some point in all of this, you've, you've started to pick up a camera and I gather you've just kind of picked the camera up and worked it all out for yourself, haven't you? Because I mean, if anybody hasn't seen your photos, they're stunning. Some really, really stunning photos of ponies. And you know, I know how hard it can be to, to do that, but you, you're capturing some amazing stuff. So, so where, how has all this started getting into taking pictures? Well, thank you very much. Yeah, it's, it's kind of got into it through horses really.
It was, we used to go to shows with mum and you know, sometimes it can be a bit like watching paint dry. And you sit there and our ponies were never, you know, they were never showstoppers. We were never going to win anything. And we'd go to like, look at the pictures afterwards and they'd never, never really focused on our ponies. So there'd be a few pictures of them, but they weren't looking particularly good or anything. So I think my dad had a little digital camera and he used to just sort of lend it to me and say, why don't you try and get some good ones of your mum? And that's kind of where it became. I used to take a few pictures of her when she was a tiny dot in the screen. And then I kind of worked on that to get when she was coming past and to try and get one that she's on the correct diagonal and all that
Fell Pony Podcast episode 11
Fell Pony Podcast episode 12
Lownthwaite Fell Pony Podcast – Tom
Lloyd Interview with Christine Morton &
Alison Bell
Date: [Podcast Date Not Provided]
Hosts: Tom Lloyd
Guests: Christine Morton (President, Fell Pony Society), Alison Bell (Council
Member, Fell Pony Society)
Q&A
1. Question:
"What would you mean by that? What was going on? What was the world like
back then?"
Answer (Christine/Alison):
• Move to Lownthwaite: tenanted farm from Hothfield, Appleby Castle
estate.
• Steam power had not reached Fellside farms; land too hilly and uneven
for mechanization.
• Clydesdales used as tractors; lighter horses for market work.
• Fell Ponies were versatile “odd-job” horses, akin to today’s quad bikes.
• They were not strong enough to plough; anecdote of two Fell Ponies
unable to plough a full furrow, highlighting their limitations.
• People walked, rode bikes, or rode ponies for transport and work.
2. Question:
"You're one of the very oldest herds, aren’t you? Five generations. Could you
describe your setup, and are you farming sheep as well?"
Answer (Christine/Alison):• Herd not formally counted; best to keep ponies in separate fields to
manage them naturally.
• Approximately 15–20 ponies.
• Run area: Milburn Fell, between Cross Fell and “the golf ball” landmark;
includes Great Dunfell and Little Dunfell.
• Fences and Ministry of Defence boundaries limit some movement.
• Country is wild, with natural barriers and bogs; ponies are adept at self-
preservation.
• The land is roughly four miles to Back Fell; shelter is primarily natural
terrain.
• March is the “hungry month,” requiring supplementary feeding (cornflakes
analogy used).
• Ponies respond to weather instinctively, moving to sheltered areas before
storms.
3. Question:
"Christine, can we go back to your sort of earliest memories of ponies at
Lownthwaite?"
Answer (Christine):
• Grew up with a brown-and-white Icelandic pony named Sunshine, bought
for £5 at Wigton Auction.
• Fell Ponies were always present on the farm.
• Geographic preference for breeds: north – Clydesdales; south – Shires.
Clydesdales easier to work with; Shires less amenable.
• Grandad disliked grooming tasks such as docking tails; only docked
ponies intended for sale.
• Cobwebs historically used to stop bleeding after tail docking.
4. Question:"Do you only use black stallions, and do you ever get throwbacks to different
colours?"
Answer (Christine/Alison):
• Primarily breed black ponies.
• A few greys have been bred intentionally.
• Crosses with coloured ponies are rare; unwanted colour foals sold as they
may be rejected by herd.
• Historically, Romany buyers preferred coloured ponies for identification
and to avoid military commandeering.
• Over time, white markings were bred out by default due to market
preferences.
• Some preference for a star marking for identification.
5. Question:
"Was he breeding all shapes and colours, or when did you become a
predominantly black herd?"
Answer (Christine/Alison):
• By default, herd became predominantly black.
• Romany people historically influenced colour selection to avoid
commandeering during wartime.
• Fashion shifted: previously, ponies with white markings were valuable;
now, all-black or all-brown preferred.
6. Question:
"So, is that something you picked up from your dads and your granddad? You
know, is it just how you've always done it?"
Answer (Christine/Alison):
• Practices such as covering mares on longest day, and weaning foals on
fine days, follow traditional calendars.• Dictated by weather and land conditions to prevent illness (e.g.,
pneumonia in sheep).
• Ponies brought down from fell when grazing insufficient; mares and foals
weaned in favorable conditions.
• Young stock remain on the fell until their turn for breeding or sale.
7. Question:
"Can you tell me about the historical references to ‘gallowers’ and ‘jaggers’?"
Answer (Christine/Alison):
• “Gallowers” refers to Fell Ponies; historically used underground or in mining
regions.
• “Jaggers” were pack ponies, related to German “Jäger” (hunter).
• Some roads named Jagger Lane/Road reflect this pack pony heritage.
• Ponies sold historically for mining work; transactions sometimes paid in
white five-pound notes.
8. Question:
"Why do we bother to keep them?"
Answer (Christine/Alison):
• Prices fluctuate over decades; financial return is minimal compared to
work involved.
• Keeping ponies is motivated by enjoyment, tradition, and passion rather
than profit.
• Emotional and heritage value outweighs practical economic
considerations.
9. Question:"So, what do we get out of the ponies that we don't get out of the sheep and the
cattle?"
Answer (Christine/Alison):
• Emotional engagement and satisfaction from working with ponies.
• Driving and breeding ponies gives a personal “buzz,” comparable to
surfing or riding.
• Ponies provide connection with heritage and continuity of the breed.
10. Question:
"Ride or drive?"
Answer:
• Both Christine and Alison: Ride (preferred; easier than driving).
11. Question:
"Best Fell Pony or line of Fell Ponies in the history of the breed?"
Answer:
• Christine: Bunny (personal favourite).
• Alison: Lampfoot Bramble; also admires Guards Ponies for performance.
• Guards Hero incorporated into herd for superior performance traits.
12. Question:
"Black, brown, bay, or grey?"
Answer:
• Both Christine and Alison: Black (predominant herd colour preference).
Summary Notes for Citation
• Herd management emphasizes natural environment adaptation,
seasonal awareness, and traditional husbandry practices.• Breeding choices influenced historically by war, market demand,
Romany buyers, and heritage conservation.
• Cultural and emotional motivations strongly influence continued
maintenance of the semi-feral herd.
• Historical context includes price records, commandeering during
wartime, and breed preservation debates.
Lownthwaite Fell Ponies – Reference
Document
Guests: Christine Morton (President, Fell Pony Society), Alison Bell (Fell Pony
Society Council)
Source: Interview with Tom Lloyd, Fell Pony Podcast
1. History and Early Herd Context
• Lownthwaite has had Fell Ponies since at least 1889, when Thomas Wales
(Thos) and his mother Mary moved there.
• The farm was tenanted from the Hothfield, Appleby Castle estate.
• Steam power did not reach Fellside farms because the terrain was too
hilly; agriculture relied on horses.
• Clydesdales were used for heavy work, lighter horses for transport to
market, and Fell Ponies were “odd-job” animals, akin to modern quad
bikes.
• Fell Ponies could not plough effectively; historical anecdotes describe
them ploughing in short, circular patches.
• Walking, cycling, or riding ponies were primary means of transportation.
2. Herd Management and Environment• Herd size is approximate (15–20 ponies) and not strictly counted; ponies
are managed in separate fields to allow natural movement.
• Ponies run out on Milburn Fell, between Cross Fell and a landmark known
as “the golf ball,” including Great Dunfell and Little Dunfell.
• Natural barriers (bogs) and Ministry of Defence boundaries limit
movement.
• Shelter is primarily natural terrain; grass growth is seasonal, starting
around 25th April.
• Ponies instinctively respond to weather, moving to sheltered areas before
storms, demonstrating remarkable awareness of environmental
conditions.
• In winter, ponies are fed or brought in during bad weather; they are kept in
with the stallion during breeding, then returned to the fell.
• Youngstock not used for breeding remain on the fell year-round until their
turn comes.
3. Early Memories and Family Traditions
• Christine’s first pony, Sunshine, was a brown-and-white Icelandic foal
bought for £5 from Wigton Auction.
• Fell Ponies were always present on the farm.
• Geographic preferences for horse breeds: north – Clydesdales; south –
Shires. Clydesdales were easier to work with and more adaptable.
• Grandfather disliked grooming tasks like docking tails, which were done
only for ponies intended for sale.
• Historically, cobwebs were used to clot tail wounds after docking due to
their anticoagulant and anaesthetic properties.
4. Breeding and Colour Selection• Herd predominantly breeds black ponies, with occasional intentional
greys.
• Crosses with coloured ponies are rare; unwanted coloured foals are sold,
as they may be rejected by the herd.
• Romany buyers historically preferred coloured ponies for identification
and to avoid military commandeering.
• White markings were largely bred out by default due to market demand;
today, preference is for all-black or all-brown ponies.
• A small white star is useful for identification.
• Traditional breeding practices include covering mares on the longest day
(optimum light and fresh grass) and weaning foals only on fine days to
minimize risk of illness.
5. Herd Behaviour and Training
• Ponies are highly attuned to the environment; they choose safe paths
down the fell and instinctively find shelter during storms.
• Youngstock are trained gradually with stallions, before sale, breeding, or
breaking in.
• Herd management is guided by land, weather, and seasonal cycles.
• Tracks are often simple sheep trods; ponies navigate these safely where
humans cannot.
6. Historical Notes and Influence
• Terms “gallowers” (Fell Ponies) and “jaggers” (pack ponies) were
historically used.
• Ponies were sold for mining work, sometimes paid for in white five-pound
notes.• Historical price records illustrate fluctuating pony values over decades
(e.g., 1935: two unbroken geldings sold for £7 each, equivalent to one
agricultural worker’s annual wage).
• During wartime, ponies were commandeered, but Lownthwaite kept
stallions like Storm Boy due to ability to feed them from rations.
• Thoroughbred ponies were sometimes kept for shepherding and
breeding, producing award-winning offspring.
7. Legacy and Motivation
• Christine and Alison continue herd management due to tradition, passion,
and connection with heritage rather than financial gain.
• Ponies provide emotional fulfillment, similar to the joy others find in pets or
recreational activities.
• The continuity of the breed is a strong motivator; ensuring survival of
traditional Fell Ponies connects past, present, and future.
• Children and successive generations learn traditional management
practices (e.g., opening gates, mucking out, gathering ponies).
8. Personal Preferences
• Preferred activities: Ride over drive.
• Favourite ponies: Christine – Bunny; Alison – Lampfoot Bramble and
Guards ponies for performance.
• Preferred colour: Black, consistent with herd selection practices.
9. Key Takeaways for BOEI
• Husbandry Practices: Seasonal awareness, natural grazing, minimal
intervention, respect for weather cycles.
• Breeding Philosophy: Preservation of traditional Fell Pony traits, colour
selection influenced by market and historical events.• Cultural and Historical Insight: Herd has been maintained through
wartime, economic fluctuations, and social changes.
• Motivation: Emotional, cultural, and heritage-driven; not primarily
economic.
Fell Pony Podcast episode 13
Fell Pony Podcast – Eliza Brown
Interview
Host: Tom Lloyd
Guest: Eliza Brown
Topic: Cape Wrath Trail expedition with a Fell Pony
1. How was the adventure in a nutshell?
Eliza Brown:
It was wholesome, adventurous, and simple in style. I found a rhythm and
learned a lot. The experience was very communal and focused on trust-building
and companionship. It was rough, wild, and challenging, but it suited my
personality. Initially, I wondered if bringing the pony was a mistake, but we
figured it out together.
2. Tell me about your early days and were there any horses at that
time?
Eliza Brown:
I started riding at age three on small ponies with attitude. I learned to fall and
get back up, care for animals, and work outdoors in all conditions. I progressed
to competing and was deeply influenced by growing up on a rustic farm, which
taught me practical outdoor skills.
3. You competed on horseback as a member of the British Eventing
Association. What kind of horses were they?
Eliza Brown:
I competed on a thoroughbred named Finnegan. He was my transition from
pony club to more serious eventing. The opportunity came from a local lady,
Dina Webster, who wanted someone to take the horse on. It taught me grit,
determination, and how to manage a challenging horse.
4. Where did the idea or desire to travel with horses come from?Eliza Brown:
I was inspired after seeing Fell Pony Adventures in the Daily Telegraph. I wanted
to combine expedition work with ponies. My previous solo attempt at
expeditions taught me a pony could carry my gear, making the journey feasible
and enjoyable.
5. Why the Cape Wrath Trail? What happened on your first
attempt?
Eliza Brown:
I wanted to challenge myself in local wilderness. Cape Wrath Trail is about 400
km of remote, unmarked Highland terrain. My first attempt was an opportunity
to test myself, improve my expedition skills, and learn navigation. There was no
sentimental reason; it was purely an adventure.
6. Tell me about the first few days and acclimatisation with Pansy.
Eliza Brown:
I spent a day acclimatising with Pansy, which was stressful. On the first day, we
faced steep and rocky terrain. Pansy handled it brilliantly, which gave me
confidence. It was emotional and challenging, but it set the tone for trust and
rhythm for the rest of the expedition.
7. Where did you stay at night and how did you manage the route?
Eliza Brown:
The plan changed daily due to terrain, fences, rivers, and other obstacles. I didn’t
strictly follow the Cape Wrath Trail. I camped in practical spots with water and
flat ground. I stayed adaptable, learning to go with the flow. Local knowledge
and advice were invaluable for route planning.
8. What were people’s reactions to you traveling with a pony?
Eliza Brown:
People were amazed and generous. On Falcon Ridge, locals were shocked and
gave Pansy apples and polo mints. I met estate managers and locals whoshared paddocks, information, and assistance. Community support made the
journey richer.
9. What were the hazards and how did you navigate?
Eliza Brown:
Navigation was challenging due to unmarked trails, man-made obstacles
(fences, cattle grids, dams), and boggy terrain. I used a map, compass, Garmin
inReach, and local knowledge. I learned when not to attempt certain paths and
had to adapt continually.
10. How did the Scottish weather affect you and Pansy?
Eliza Brown:
We faced strong winds (60 knots) and torrential rain. Pansy was unfazed due to
her hardiness, but ticks were a major issue. I spent evenings removing ticks from
both of us to avoid Lyme disease, which was mentally and physically
challenging.
11. How did hoof protection work out with boots and shoes?
Eliza Brown:
I initially tried rubber boots, but they caused rubbing and discomfort. After
adjusting, we eventually returned to shoes for Pansy. Vet wrap helped
temporarily, but the boots weren’t suitable for long, rocky walks. This taught me
to monitor comfort closely and adapt gear as needed.
12. How did you manage food during the trek?
Eliza Brown:
Food was compact and high-calorie. Breakfast was a protein powder, chocolate
powder, oats, and pecans. Lunch was instant pot noodles, dinner was 800-
calorie rehydration packs. Snacks included fruit, nuts, chocolate, protein bars,
and Polo mints for Pansy. Pre-boiling water and planning kept food preparation
efficient.
13. What was the daily routine?Eliza Brown:
I got up around 6 am, left between 8–9 am, and walked in two-hour segments
with breaks. Pansy grazed during breaks, and I ate and drank. We repeated this
structure for the day, with camp setup and meal prep in the evenings. Routine
helped maintain stamina and predictability for both of us.
14. What was in your kit and how much weight did you carry?
Eliza Brown:
Each pack weighed 24 kg. One side contained personal and Pansy’s gear
(medical kit, brushes, ropes), the other side contained camping equipment
(tent, sleeping bag, clothing). Water, food, and extra clothing were evenly
distributed. I also carried a day bag for tools and essentials.
15. What have you learned from this expedition?
Eliza Brown:
The experience built trust with Pansy and confidence in myself. I want to work
with ponies in expeditions again. Key lessons included slowing down, valuing the
journey over the destination, and enjoying experiences rather than just aiming
for a goal. Eye-level travel with Pansy created a unique bond.
16. Were you aware of how your journey would affect people?
Eliza Brown:
Not at all. Social media responses were overwhelming. People related deeply to
the connection with the pony, traditional travel, and wilderness experience. The
visual and narrative impact inspired followers who dreamt of similar journeys.
17. Quickfire questions
Ride or drive? Pack (over ride)
Favorite Fell pony or line? Haytill Pansy
Black, brown, bay, or grey? Bay (easy to keep clean)
End Note:
Eliza emphasizes that traveling with a pony is more about the journey than thedestination. Walking alongside a pony teaches patience, builds trust, and offers
profound personal insights. Every expedition, challenge, and moment shared is
valuable for personal growth and the bond with the animal.
Eliza Brown – Cape Wrath Trail
Expedition with a Fell Pony
Compiled for BOEI Reference
1. Expedition Overview
• The expedition was wholesome, adventurous, simple, and rhythmic.
• Trust-building and companionship were central to the experience.
• The journey was challenging, rough, and wild, but well-suited to Eliza’s
personality.
• Initially unsure about including the pony, she and Pansy adapted
successfully over time.
2. Early Riding and Outdoor Experience
• Began riding at age three on small, spirited ponies.
• Learned resilience: falling and getting back up, caring for animals in all
weather.
• Grew up on a rustic farm, living “like a feral child,” learning practical
outdoor survival skills.
• Experience included managing animals, outdoor chores, and
resourcefulness.
• Early riding progressed to competition, fostering grit, discipline, and horse
management skills.3. Eventing Experience
• Competed on a thoroughbred named Finnegan, which bridged the
transition from ponies to serious eventing.
• Opportunity arose through a local connection; required six months of
preparation and bonding with the horse.
• Taught determination, problem-solving, and horse-handling under
pressure.
4. Motivation for Traveling with Ponies
• Inspired by Fell Pony Adventures and the desire to combine expedition
work with ponies.
• A previous solo expedition failed due to carrying too much gear; pony
offered practical load-carrying support.
• Prior relationship with horses and ponies made it a natural fit for
expedition travel.
5. Cape Wrath Trail
• Trail is ~400 km, unmarked, remote, and challenging.
• Requires navigation skills, including map, compass, and local knowledge.
• Terrain includes steep slopes, rocky ridges, bogs, and man-made
obstacles (fences, gates, dams).
• The trail emphasizes wilderness survival and expedition planning rather
than speed or competition.
6. Acclimatisation and Early Days
• Spent one day acclimatising Pansy to the trail and gear.• First full day involved steep, rocky terrain; Pansy demonstrated capability
and calmness.
• Early challenges provided learning opportunities and confidence-building.
7. Route Planning and Camping
• Plans changed daily to accommodate terrain and pony needs.
• Focused on practical camping: fresh water, grass, flat ground.
• Adaptability was critical; local knowledge and advice from estate
managers were invaluable.
• Flexibility and going with the flow were essential lessons.
8. Interactions with People
• Locals were amazed, generous, and supportive.
• Community support included access to paddocks, supplies, and advice.
• Social interactions and hospitality enhanced the journey experience.
• Meeting knowledgeable locals, such as estate managers and pony pack
makers, was crucial.
9. Hazards and Navigation
• Terrain included bogs, steep slopes, and rocky ridges.
• Man-made obstacles (fences, cattle grids, dams) required detours and
problem-solving.
• Navigation relied on maps, compass, Garmin inReach, and local
guidance.
• Learning where not to go with a pony was essential for safety.10. Weather and Environmental Challenges
• Faced strong winds (up to 60 knots) and heavy rain.
• Pansy handled extreme weather well; her hardiness made her reliable.
• Tick infestations were severe; regular removal was necessary to prevent
Lyme disease.
11. Hoof Protection
• Initially used rubber boots for Pansy, which caused rubbing, discomfort,
and raw patches.
• Temporary protection included vet wrap, but long-term solution required
proper shoeing.
• Monitoring comfort and adjusting gear was a critical lesson.
12. Food and Nutrition
• Focused on lightweight, high-calorie, easy-to-prepare meals:
◦ Breakfast: protein powder, chocolate powder, oats, pecans.
◦ Lunch: instant pot noodles.
◦ Dinner: 800-calorie rehydration packs.
◦ Snacks: fruit, nuts, chocolate, protein bars, Polo mints for Pansy.
• Pre-boiling water and efficient meal prep were critical for safety and
energy management.
• Daily calories burned: ~2,500 active calories, ~50,000 steps per day.
13. Daily Routine
• Morning routine: wake at 6 am, breakfast, route planning, prepare Pansy.• Walks: ~2 hours segments with breaks for grazing, snacks, and hydration.
• Evening routine: set up camp, meals, check gear and pony’s comfort.
• Routine provided structure, reduced mental load, and maximized distance
efficiently.
14. Gear and Packing
• Each pack weighed ~24 kg:
◦ One pack: personal and Pansy’s gear (medical kits, brushes, ropes).
◦ Other pack: camping gear (tent, sleeping bag, clothing).
◦ Day bag: grab bag with essentials, spare coat, medical kit, tools.
• Distribution of weight was adjusted for balance and accessibility.
15. Key Lessons and Reflections
• Traveling with a pony builds trust, companionship, and mutual
understanding.
• Eye-level interaction with a pony creates a unique bond.
• Slowing down allows for appreciation of the environment, people, and
wildlife.
• The journey matters more than the destination.
• Expedition planning requires adaptability, resilience, and reliance on local
knowledge.
• Community interactions enhance both practical and emotional aspects
of travel.
• Confidence, problem-solving, and logistical skills were strengthened
through challenges.
16. Impact on Others• Social media and local attention highlighted the cultural and emotional
connection between people and horses.
• The journey inspired others to consider similar experiences and
highlighted traditional methods of travel.
17. Quick Facts
• Preferred method of travel: Pack (walking with pony, not riding).
• Favorite Fell Pony: Haytill Pansy.
• Preferred coat color: Bay (practical and easy to clean).
✅ Summary:
Eliza’s experience demonstrates that expedition travel with a pony emphasizes
trust, adaptability, and the journey itself. Success relies on careful planning,
awareness of terrain and hazards, proper nutrition, gear management, and
fostering connections with both animals and people.
Fell Pony Podcast episode 14
break the andrew thorpe podcast transcript down into all the questions
Tom LLoyd asks him and give all answers seperately deliver a complete
document ready for study or citation.
Walter Lloyd – Practical Reference on
Fell Ponies for BOEI
Source: Archive interviews compiled from the Fell Pony Podcast
1. Early Experiences with Donkeys and Ponies
• Early exposure to donkeys and small carts taught him handling, riding,
and basic equine care.
• Learned from Romani travellers and local handlers about donkey
management, pack saddles, and animal temperament.
• Gained early experience traveling and managing animals over varied
terrain, including mountainous regions.
Key Takeaway: Early, hands-on exposure builds confidence, understanding of
temperament, and ability to manage animals in diverse environments.
2. Starting with Fell Ponies
• Began breeding Fell Ponies for his children and farm work.
• Selected hardy local breeds suitable for hill land.
• Acquired ponies via Fell Pony Society connections and reputable breeders.
• Turned ponies out on open moorland with common rights, allowing them
to develop natural hardiness.Key Takeaway: Selection should focus on hardiness, suitability to terrain, and
temperament, not just appearance. Establish connections with reputable
breeders and societies.
3. Breeding and Genetic Considerations
• Avoid inbreeding to preserve fertility and foal survival.
• Many ponies are closely related; tracking lineage is critical.
• Need access to farms or common land for pony grazing.
• Breeding requires knowledge of both genetics and land access for
turnout.
Key Takeaway: Genetic diversity + access to suitable grazing land are primary
concerns for maintaining a sustainable Fell Pony population.
4. Herd Management
• Ponies can be managed effectively on minimal expense if grazing is
plentiful.
• Hardiness allows them to live out year-round without intensive care.
• Semi-feral ponies require careful handling when young: gradually build
trust, teach rope and halter work, and allow time for adaptation.
• Ponies are generally healthy with minimal vet or farrier input if kept on
open fell.
• Routine management includes:
◦ Biannual checks (after foaling and in autumn/winter).
◦ Weaning foals and training yearlings.
◦ Preparing animals for handling and potential work (riding, driving, or
pack work).Key Takeaway: Semi-feral ponies thrive with low-input care, but early
handling and gradual exposure to humans are essential for long-term
manageability.
5. Hardiness and Characteristics
• Fell Ponies are hardy, strong, and versatile.
• Can carry humans, pull carts, pack loads, and work in variable terrain.
• Friendly and social, but individual personalities require attention.
• Most have strong natural feet; shoeing only needed for tarmac or
intensive work.
• Ability to survive and thrive outdoors year-round is a defining trait.
Key Takeaway: Preserve and prioritize the hardiness and adaptability of Fell
Ponies over cosmetic traits.
6. Handling Behavior
• Each pony has unique behaviors (“dodges”) which must be understood to
manage effectively.
• Escape tendencies or quirks are common but can be managed through
consistent handling.
• Observing and learning individual behaviors improves safety and
effectiveness.
Key Takeaway: Behavioral observation and understanding individual quirks
are vital in herd management and training.
7. Working with Ponies in Practice
• Ponies can be used for a variety of tasks: riding, driving, carrying packs,
and agricultural work.• Ponies are capable of navigating crowded areas, challenging terrain, and
carrying significant loads with minimal supervision.
• Community support often helps in emergencies or accidents.
Key Takeaway: Fell Ponies are multi-functional working animals, ideal for low-
impact farm work and transport in rural environments.
8. Appleby Fair Experiences
• Driving ponies to fairs requires trust, skill, and anticipation of herd
behavior.
• Ponies can respond instinctively to guidance, crowds, and unexpected
challenges.
• Maintaining annual traditions strengthens knowledge of the breed and its
community.
Key Takeaway: Experience in handling large semi-feral herds in variable
conditions is invaluable for developing pony-handling competence.
9. Personal Preferences and Recommendations
• Drive rather than ride: ponies can be more safely managed from carts if
balance is poor.
• Color is secondary; health and temperament are primary selection
criteria.
• Favorite line: Heltondale Polly Perkins; Favorite pony: Hades Hill Charlie.
• The most important aspects of Fell Ponies are hardiness, temperament,
and versatility.
Key Takeaway: Prioritize temperament, endurance, and adaptability over
aesthetics in selection and breeding.
Summary for BOEI Practical Reference1. Breeding: Avoid inbreeding; maintain genetic diversity.
2. Land Use: Ensure access to grazing through common rights or suitable
farms.
3. Management: Semi-feral ponies require low-cost, low-intervention care
but need early handling.
4. Character & Hardiness: Select for temperament, versatility, and survival
skills.
5. Training: Observe quirks; use gradual, consistent exposure to humans.
6. Work & Utility: Ponies can perform riding, driving, pack, and light farm
work efficiently.
7. Community & Support: Leverage local knowledge and assistance during
transport or emergencies.
Walter Lloyd
Hey how you doing? Welcome back to the Fell Pony Podcast. I'm Tom Lloyd and it's really lovely to have you here again. On today's show I have something a little bit different for you and I've put together a show from all of the archive interviews I have of my dad Walter who died in 2018 aged 93. I'd done many interviews with him over the years mostly about his travels to Appleby Fair with our ponies which he lived for every year and also from some interviews recorded with children at Settlebeck school in 2010. To begin with Walter talks about traveling with donkeys as a young boy and how he got into breeding the Hades Hill Fell Ponies in the 1950s. When I was born and family we lived at Zanna at Chai Ponds bridge cottage. We had a mill at the end of the garden and it's now a museum and some of my very earliest memories are from people coming to the door selling things. Peddlers with suitcases full of haberdashery and things like that and in particular I remember Mrs. James coming around with a daughter and son-in-law in a pony and trap and they sold rush matting and coconut fiber doormats and basketry and things of that kind. Now they were proper Romani-speaking gypsies and they used to come around every year and they were usually camped over by Prussia Cove. I had a donkey and my friend Rex had another one and we used to go riding all around the place and then one summer I suppose it'd be probably 1938 we set off my donkey, donkey and cart, a little tub trap with my sister and her friend Pulley and we camped on the way and we got to Prussia Cove but we'd gone partly to sort of meet up with the Jameses but they weren't there when we got there, they'd gone and walked about somewhere. So we took another two or three days going back and we had a fine old time. I'd got the the first donkey cart which was a Shea because there was a man who came to live at a cottage right up at the top of the Zanna hill called Hia Khan and he was a Mr. Bourne and he had donkeys and he travelled with them every summer and then he'd come back to Hia Khan in the wintertime and Rex and I used to ride up there to see him because he'd got donkeys and he was an interesting man and he spoke quite a lot of different travellers dialects and we I picked up quite a bit from him. And one day there was an advert in the paper about a farm sale coming off and there was a donkey Shea advertised. Now a Shea is a very very simple cart that the miners used to use to get to work with their donkeys. It's just a pair of wooden wheels and an axle and a pair of shafts bolted down onto the axle and two balls one right at the back to sit on and one a bit further forward to put your feet on and very light easy for the donkeys to pull. So Rex and I and Mr. Bourne went over to this sale and I was able to buy the Shea at the auction for five shillings which even then was quite a bit of money. His donkey brought it back over the hills and as far as his place at Hia Khan and we went up the next day and I brought it down home and I got hold of some harness as well and then I swapped the Shea for this tub cart later on and then after that I swapped the tub cart for a little dog cart for donkey size. So we had quite a few carts of one sort or another but mostly we rode about on the donkeys. And then of course before the war in 1939, Easter 1939, I traveled with my father out by train to Sicily where my brother was with his wife Nancy and they'd been traveling through Sicily with a donkey cart. Now in Sicily the carts are all beautifully painted with scenes from the operas and things of that kind and they got as far as Tormina and they decided that there was too much traffic for their pleasure and so they sold the donkey and cart and bought two other donkeys to use as pack ponies to go in over the hills over the mountain tracks and we joined them. They were staying at Giardini which was then a little tiny fishing village below Tormina. We stayed in what was then the only hotel. It was a very primitive hotel. The beds had wooden boards in them with straw mattresses on top. The donkeys were in a Fondaco which was a public stable just nearby and you could keep your horse or mule or donkey there and you could buy food for it there, take it out during the day and bring it back at night or whatever. And after a few days there we set off over the mountains to go right around Mount Etna and that was really quite an experience traveling with these two donkeys with pack saddles on. I remember one of the donkeys a great big thing in very poor condition. I think that's why Nancy bought it because it was needy looking after and it was called grande fame in Italian, great hunger, or sometimes people refer to it as mortadello because that's where it was likely to end up as sausages. And the other one was a tiny little Sicilian pygmy donkey which although so small managed to throw my brother off one day when he was riding it on a beach. But anyway there we were traveling through the mountains and we'd stop one day and there was a little river there we had to cross and the big donkey lay down in the middle of the river and we couldn't get him up until some local farmers were coming by and one of them said pour a little water down its ear and so we tried it and he was up like a shot. And then the farmers, the peasantry family, they helped us repack our load because they were very used to these donkey pack saddles and we went on and that night we finished up in a little village called Cagi down on the River Alcantara that goes around Mount Etna. The first horse I ever rode was a big farm horse called Blottom. It wasn't too big for a pony but there was a pony out on the open cliffs, it was near the sea, and she was called Queenie and she was very quiet and she was very old by that time she must have been a good 30 years old and you could get on her back and she didn't mind and you'd give her a piece of bread or a lump of sugar afterwards and she'd be quite happy. So those are the two that I first remember riding, Blottom and Queenie. The late 1940s and early 50s saw the demise of the working pony but Walter, being Walter, started breeding ponies when everybody else was getting into tractors. Tractors were taking over during the war because I suppose the government thought they could produce more food and we were short of food, we couldn't import it. And then right at the end of the war there was a big demand for horse meat because the meat ration for beef and lamb and so on was only about two ounces of meat a week, very little, sort of two rations of bacon sort of thing, that was your ration for the week. But horse meat wasn't rationed and so as tractors were taking over there were a lot of spare horses, redundant horses, and so they were killing them for meat. And in fact for a while it became profitable for the farmers to breed horses just for the sake of the meat. And that's probably the thing that saved the fell ponies from from dying out altogether then. If there hadn't been a market for them for meat nobody wanted them for anything else then. And about the time I started breeding, ten years after the war, people were just beginning to think about riding for pleasure again and people were beginning to be better off and could afford to keep a pony. And I mean keeping it in a stable and buying food for it, that sort of thing, you know. But if it hadn't been for the meat trade there probably wouldn't be any fell ponies now. What made you start owning your own fell ponies?
Well, really it was my children were just at the age where they wanted a pony and I could use a pony. I was on a farm and I could use a pony on the farm and I had common rights out at the extreme area of what you could call local for the fells. I found who the main breeders were up here and I went to get some of the local hardy breed that were suitable for the hill land I was living in. It was because of that that I went to Appleby Fair for the first time. I was looking for a pony for the family, for the children and I didn't find the sort of pony I wanted there. But later on I met the secretary of the Fell Pony Society, Peggy Crossland. She'd already written to, I think it was Horse and Hound talking about fell ponies and I thought that's the sort of pony we want. She took me to meet Sarge Noble at Bampton near Penrith who had the most breeding fell ponies and I went to try and get a pony from him. I came away with two mares in full and a few years later I went back to get another pony and I came away that time with six mares and I said look I can't pay for all these.
Fell Pony Podcast episode 15
Charlie and Gina Parker
Hey, how you doing? Welcome to the Fell Pony Podcast. My name's Tom Lloyd and it's really lovely to have you here again. On today's show we're going to talk about the Fell Pony's sister breed, the Dale's Pony, its shared history, differences and similarities between the breed and also their role as a workhorse. So I would like to introduce Charlie and Gina Parker. Charlie is a horseman and forester who is one of a handful of horse loggers keeping this ancient art alive and together with Gina they breed the Roandale Ponies. Charlie and Gina, how are you doing? All right thanks. Very well thank you. Good, nice to be here. Good, good to see you. It's a little bit unusual this one because I'm actually sitting across the table from you. So here we are, Hill Gill Farm. Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about your setup and what you've got going on here? We have a 125 acre holding with plenty of buildings. We're 1,200 foot above sea level. We've been here 12 years, come March and we just run a, you know, a small hill farm with Dale's Ponies, a few Belted Galloway cattle, Dale's Bed Sheep and Old English Goats and a few of our prayer engines just for our own use. We keep it very simple where everything's low input, we're having native breeds, we don't need much feed, we produce our own winter feed every year, we don't use any fertilizer although we're not registered as organic but we don't use any fertilizer, never have done and we just keep it on the maximum sustainable output job really as much as we can. I do all my fencing because that's part of my trade anyway, you know, we've planted some hedges this last spring and again this spring coming. We're all stocked dry stone walls everywhere apart from these edges I've just put in because there was only two trays on the place when we came, one blew down in a storm and there's absolutely no shade here. Five or six years ago I had a Belted Galloway cow got sunburned on its belt so I'm just going down the agroforestry route really. So you've got a few sheep, how many sheep have you got here? 85 lamb and yowls we have, we keep 30 followers every year. We're closed herds with everything, the only thing we're buying is tubs for sheep and a bull occasionally for cows, all my ponies are a closed herd. How many ponies have you got? 17 at present, 11 mares I think, two stallions, there's just one mare I can't use either of them on, she's mother to one and out it's same mare as the other so I get her, I take her to a different stallion every year but I've just bought her a colt in from Sowermeyer Stud this back end for new blood for future. So yeah we're fairly diverse, I'm very conscious of this you know narrowing of bloodlines for the breed like so that's why I bought this colt in. They're both blue Rhona my stallions, one's seven year old coming and one's 22 coming, how long the other old boy will keep going I don't know but we'll see. We're just trying for quality of pony really and the colour, if we get a Rhone that's a bonus. We have mainly bare mares, we've only one black mare and that's out on breeding lawn on another stud at present like, like black is the common colour like in the Dales and so we try to keep to the rarer colours if we can and it seems to be working fairly well. So let's go right back to the start, as I understand it Gina you were brought up with ponies, Dales ponies? I was, well yes, various ponies really. So tell me a little bit about that, where was that? That was at Kirby Lonsdale, my father was, had a haulage business, milk, milk tankers but his passion in life was harness racing so we had a lot of trotters and pacers so I was brought up with them as well but he always had some good coloured cobs about and he'd always have a Dales pony or fowl pony or fowl gallower or Dales gallower as he used to call them because he never called them a Dales or a fowl pony, they were always just a gallower and so I was brought up and pony clubbed and everything with, with those as a child. So yes I went to the auctions with him and the markets and things and, and hunted on a Dales pony and when I was 12 and so yeah I was brought up with them all around me really but he died when I was 16 so things changed then. So you Charlie, you started off as a forester? Yeah I did yeah. Was that working with machines rather than horses?
Yeah, yeah at 18 I got a job on Bourbon Manor Estate of the Keshe Huddleworth family and I worked there for nine and a half years. I was started as assistant forester just under an old-fashioned forester boss. They were then using prison labour before I started but anyway they, they go give over prison labour a month or two after I started. They were happy with me and I were happy with them and so they give over with prison labour and then I, I just worked with forester boss like. He was a good old-fashioned forester, old school, taught me right you know and we did everything to do with timber right through and so in them days we presented our timber properly like. We felled it off bit floor, sometimes had a spade we used to get, make sure we got down as low as possible and we presented it properly because the following week we might be converting it in sawmill so it had to roll well and you know it was all done by hand in them days. So I like to think I was taught the right way like the old school way. After seven, seven years of being under him he retired the old boy and I took over for two and a half years and then I was headhunted by a local contractor and I went on for him for two years and then went on my own forestry and fencing contracting like. Even though I'd gone back to using pornish to extract my wood I was doing a lot of first thinnings when I left the estate and got, went on my own and I was producing them into fencing posts treated like which made the job viable because I was getting retail into market. Well it was about 1989 and 90 Gina, my old gamekeeper mate at Bourbon he was, he kept in touch with us and he used to come to the yard every fortnight or so didn't he. He got talking to Gina one day he fancied going on the chair bodging course at Haybridge. He said to Gina do you think Charlie would go on snigging course? Anyway me and David went, David Brook and we had a great good weekend and it started from there just a weekend with George Reid in South Lakes and it just altered my attitude to to a horse and and the viability of it like. So let's just for anybody that doesn't has never heard the word snigging so this is using horses and chains extracting timber? Yeah it's an old Cumbrian term snigging and it's yeah using horses to extract timber. So you've got your horse, you've got the chains on, you've hooked up a tush did you call it? A tush yeah. You've hooked the tush up onto the swingle tree. No no the tush is your timber. The tush is the timber? What you're dragging out right yeah your tush is your timber. But you've hooked the chain onto the swingle tree? Yeah. You've got a chain around your tush? Yeah and that's the same chain slips into your hook on your swingle tree at any point and yeah if you have a bit of surplus chain it doesn't matter. So then what happened? So have you got reins? Well I set off with two reins since I was a beginner. Like this September I got another pony going what we bred. I went to do a job down at Swinton ready for horse loggers demo days and second day I put this new horse that had only done one day at wood on second day I put him on a single rein and had him coming out in single rein. It's just easier using a single rein than two reins when you're yorking your wood on. You know once you've got them used to a bit of directional voice command you can go on to a single rein. It was a bit of a challenge doing it on second day. I was pushing my luck a bit but the end of that second day my horse was coming out on a single rein. I could stop him by voice command. I could tell him to get or come right or left and he just he just did marvellously. He picked it up so quick and it was so much easier. So the single rein? The single rein it's a single rope going straight to the bit fastened to the bit on you know through it and both sides of the bit so you've got even pull on the bit not one-sided pull. So that's more to stop? Yeah more to stop it if need be or you know just till he gets used to his voice commands but I'd been long reining it plenty and I'd chain harrowed it plenty so it was used to me commands of come and get for right and left and he just did brilliantly like. I pull a tyre after I've long reined him like a either a unimog
Fell Pony Podcast episode 16
Penny Rendell
Hey how you doing? Welcome back to the Fell Pony Podcast. My name's Tom Lloyd and it's really lovely to have you here again. On today's show we're talking to a breeder with a legacy as long as your arm, who has spent pretty much all of her life in the show ring. So I would like to introduce my guest Penny Randall, who along with her mother Margaret Wilson are the custodians of the Townend herd of fell ponies that were bred by the late Eddie Wilson. Oh Penny, thanks very much for joining me. Oh it's an absolute pleasure Tom, thank you very much for asking me. Good, well I'm sure there's going to be loads of information. I mean interestingly actually for me on a personal level, Townend is one of the lines that there's very little of it in our bloodlines. So it's, you're actually, well we're going to come on to this isn't it, because it's more complicated than just Townend. So this is going to be really interesting for me to kind of find out a bit more. Because you're a Southerner, you're in the south of the county, that's what it is. You're not northern enough Tom, so I've never crossed.
I've been here nearly 30 years and still an offcomer I reckon. Anyway, so let's get into it. So many of our listeners will know you through the Townend ponies. If I've got this right, your mother Margaret was married to Eddie Wilson, who sadly died about 20 years ago. Yes, yeah, it is actually 20 years this month, so we're hitting the anniversary. So I must admit actually, you know, doing the preparation and going through the records and the tributes that were made 20 years ago and everything else, it's been quite an emotional process. And actually just looking back at all the people that have gone in that time and, you know, since I was, I've been around the ponies for over 50 years and there's too many names gone and it's been quite a, as I say, emotional journey over the last few days. I mean just the whole nature of actually of a herd of ponies, it's a legacy, isn't it? And there's so much goes with it. So, but you also have your own prefix, Holtcliffe. I do, yes, yeah, I do.
You're also related through Eddie to Glenys Cockbain and the Carrack ponies. So we have three lineages here, any of whom I would be extremely proud to be associated with. And if I've got this right, as I understand it, the Townend stud is situated in Holtcliffe, adjacent to Carrack Fell and Coldbet Common. So could you just explain how these three studs are connected and do you all work together or do you do your own thing? How does it work between you all? What's going on? Well, as you say, you know, we all have a legacy and we're all custodians of the breed really and we're just so fortunate that everybody has been keen. So in terms of the Carrack ponies, as you say, Glenys is Eddie Wilson's daughter and she's been pony mad from the very, very early days. And it was only natural when she left home to start a family and she's based just near Keswick that she would start her own lineage, really, with the Carrack and Fell and Dales ponies prefix. I guess I've been more closely associated, as I say, for over 50 years, but latterly helping mum more than anything, the two of us. And certainly when Eddie was alive and after Eddie's day, we've just carried on breeding the Town End ponies. So we would work together on that. Mum is absolutely incredible. You know, she still does the majority of work herself with the ponies. I work full time, so it's not as easy for me to be there day in, day out as she is. I did own, in my own right, a pony called Town End Sugar and that's when I started my, well, Town End Sugar II, sorry, that's when I started my Honkcliffe prefix. But in reality, I'm too involved in Town End ponies to actually breed in my own right because I'm so closely associated with what goes on at Town End. How many mares, what have you got? Do you keep a stallion? Yeah, we do have a stallion. So yes, we're absolutely semi-feral breeders. So we're farmers primarily. So my mum and my stepbrother Edwin, Eddie Wilson's son, farm. So it's a hill farm, primarily swaledale sheep and a few suckler cows and ponies, fell ponies have always been part of the farm. And yes, we have fell rights. We run a set number of mares on the fell at the moment. I think there's about 15 out on the fell and we're very lucky that, as we were saying, that that area is known as Colbeck Common and basically can cover about 10,000 acres that they could wander off to, but they obviously don't. They do graze right up Carrick Fell, West Fell, perhaps not as high as High Pipe, but those are the three fells and the common areas that they're on. And then we have obviously land around the farm that some of the ponies graze rather than going out on the fell. So let's go right back to the start Penny. So what are your earliest memories of the ponies at Townend? Well, it might help just to go back to Eddie's day. Townend is based in the Northern Fells and so we're in the Lake District National Park and our hamlet is called Holtcliffe, which is literally just a scattering of houses and our nearest villages are Heskett, Newmarket and Colbeck. One of the things that Colbeck is known for is the famous huntsman John Peel, who was buried in the church at Colbeck, so we could have a sing song at the end if you like. And that village is actually named after the river which was Colbeck. The ponies graze on Colbeck Common, which is on the sides of West Fell. I suppose they graze at maybe a height of about 1600 feet. It's renowned I suppose for its famous minerals, so it has a vast extent of quite rare minerals that were mined on Carrick and in particular it was lead, copper and berytes, if I'm saying that correctly.
In our whole area there was mining that began in the 13th century. I believe its heyday was in the 17th century, but the last mine closed as recently as the 1960s. And Carrick Fell itself was also the site of an Iron Age fort. Like most farmers' daughters or sons, we were taught never to go walking for pleasure, so any time we were going walking it was to look for a pony. The thought of going for a pleasurable walk certainly wasn't in my childhood. Carrick would be Glenys Cockbane's prefix. Glenys is Eddie Wilson's daughter and obviously because she wanted something close to home then it was only natural that she took the Carrick prefix and she has that for both her Fell and Dale's ponies. I have the Holtcliffe prefix, but I don't read a lot of ponies because I'm just so closely associated with and involved with Townend that I just can't cope with any more really. I chose Holtcliffe because it's obviously the village, but Eddie's father had the Holtcliffe View prefix and that was where Eddie's father was born, so that's why I chose Holtcliffe.
The Holtcliffe View prefix and that was where they lived and Eddie was born and when Eddie was nine years old they moved from Holtcliffe View to Townend and the whole family obviously moved there and started farming at Townend. Our farm gate opens directly onto the open fell and that whole area would span approximately 10,000 acres. On the lower fell we have a lot of gorse and bracken and some areas are quite quite boggy, but that hasn't really posed a problem in terms of ponies and bogs. But interestingly when I was looking back through very very old Norfolk, there were a lot of looking back through very very old newsletters, there was a reference that Glennis had made. It was back in 1970 and Glennis had reported that Birkup Bank Darkie was found in a bog on Bosco Moss in January 1970. Only her head and back were slightly showing and the report went on to say that Eddie and various neighbours managed to get her out with ropes and a tractor loader and she was indoors for a few weeks but then went on to produce a filly foal that May. So I think that that shows the resilience of the fell pony isn't it? Every minute really was consumed with ponies because at that time we had such significant numbers you know we would be breeding I would say perhaps 20 foals a
Fell Pony Podcast episode 17
Paul Metcalf
Hey how you doing? Welcome back to the Fell Pony Podcast. My name's Tom Lloyd and it's really lovely to have you here again. On today's show we're talking a little bit about driving fell ponies, a bit about riding, a bit about showing and we're also going back in time to when my guest first started handling ponies in the 1950s. So I would like to introduce my guest Paul Metcalfe, breeder of the Rye House Fell Ponies and Paul is also the Vice Chair of the Fell Pony Society. So Paul how you doing? I'm good thank you. That's a bit of a cheat actually really because I know how you're doing because we've just spent the last hour driving a team of ponies together which has been really pleasurable. I should just explain to everybody that I've got to know Paul over the last couple of years because as some of you may know I made a film for the Fell Pony Society a couple years ago and Paul was a very big part of helping to get that together and I learnt a lot just driving around seeing people's ponies and yeah that was a good thing to do. And that video was trying to explain the finer points of conformation which it turns out is quite a tricky thing to do. It is, it's very tricky because everybody has a different opinion about what they should look like. It's just how you interpret the standard. Although I've got to know you over the last couple of years I don't actually know a lot about your sort of history with ponies and when I was trying to do some research for this you're actually a bit of a dark horse Paul. There's not a lot of information out there about you on the internet. No, I don't put anything on the internet or nothing. My mum's dad was called William Bousfield. He used to farm at Flash, farm underneath Wild Boar and he used to have dales ponies only for farming. But Bert said he had one of the best dales stallions he'd ever seen and he said they went numerous times to try and buy it off him and he would never sell it. So you said they were only farming, so that's what, like a market cart and a bucket of flour? Yeah and hay timing and all that kind of thing. And then my dad's dad, he was more into it. He had riding horses, Clydesdales, dales ponies. I've sat on a binder with Uncle Bill there with two Clydesdales and a dales stallion in the middle and he used to chew back her all the time and now I sat on there and he said you'll never be a man and you won't be able to drive these till you can chew back her. So he cuts me some off and we're going along and I'm chewing her so you'll have to let me off. And there was my dad come along and he goes where's Paul at? He said he's in that bumhole over there spewing up, he'll never chew back her again. And he never did. No! My driving career I suppose started off when I was quite small. Our next door neighbours was called John Gates and everywhere around by us everyone had tractors. John, he moved next door to us at a farm and he had horses to do the work. So I started off going down there on my push bike when I was about six or seven and he used to get a contractors to make silage and the silage clamp was about a good half a mile away from the farm. So we had to bring silage down every day for the cows. So we'd bring four or five block cars loads of silage down every day and the horse we used was a Shire Dales Cross. But how why I liked it and got into driving was on the way back for another load he used to go through a gate and go up a steep hill and we used to tickle his tummy with a walking stick and it used to gallop to the top and stop at the gate and I thought that was great and that got me hooked on driving. So where did this start? Your father and your grandfather, were they into ponies? My father wasn't, he hated them. Both my granddads both had ponies. Both had Dales ponies and Clydesdales. My mum's dad he just had Dales but my dad's dad had Clydesdales and Dales and hunting horses as well. I wasn't really old enough to get involved with all them at that time. I just know all about it really. What were your sort of earliest memories then of getting involved with ponies? I'd be about six, yeah six or seven at Gates's next door.
Did you ride them? Did you sit on them? Did you lead them? No, just used to do farm work with them, yeah. Leading silage, chain harrowing, all that kind of thing, yeah. They used to lead muck with a block cart and scale it out with a fork, yeah. So I was chatting to Bill Potter the other day, just trying to find out some little nuggets about you and he told me that he'd actually sold you your first horse. He did, he did. Yeah he sold me the first pony and the one I chose he wouldn't let me have because he said he wanted to keep it. I said I'll have that one there then and he says oh well I'll deliver it and he delivered it and he wouldn't take the money for it. He said see if it lives first and then if it lives and it does well I'll have my money. So and it was 50 quid, so you can tell how long ago. Anyways it was getting near to Greenholme Show time and I thought I better badger him to get him paid. He came and looked at it and he wanted to buy it back and I hadn't even given him the money to start with. Anyways I got him paid and off he went and then the one that they decided to keep for Greenholme Show I beat it. So it was a good start. Because he did tell me a little story about that, he said, was it called Greenholme Sixpence? It was yeah. Yeah he told me you'd only paid sixpence for it. It was quite, yeah, 50 quid it was. But he said you took him out for a drive down a narrow lane and you scared him stiff he said because you were going so fast and you were only a young lad. Yeah. He said he's never been so scared in his life. So you've started with one, how have we got to where we are now? Well that pony I had for a long time and it became lame so I ended up buying another one and then that's how it goes isn't it and you buy another one and then another one and then you end up with quite a few and then I used to do driving things and then I got to showing them and just all went from there. I suppose I've always liked the driving side of things but me family, they would rather show. So you've got a yard, I've been to your yard, so how many ponies have you got, how does it work, what do you do with them all? I have 11 stables and we've got about 16 ponies. I have ponies up on top of Helm but the stables are always full. There's always youngsters getting broken in and ones that we're showing and getting fit to show. I don't believe that you can get a pony in top order just on grass alone. All ours go out in the daytime in the field but they all spend night in the ones we show. They'll only maybe go out the ones that we're showing quite a lot of shows, they'll only go out probably three or four hours a day maximum and then the rest of the time they're in because you want that edge and you want that sparkle. So if they're out all the time they'll just look a bit dull and a bit dead so you want them to show themselves off to the best and when they come in the ring they want to have a good walk and they want to look intelligent, they want to look sharp and attract the judges eyes straight away and if they don't do that they get lost with all the rest and you've got to have them fit. Not only has your horse got to be fit but your jockey's got to be fit because say you go to Yorkshire show, three laps around the Yorkshire show I would say is more than half a mile and you might do that 10 times and five times of that I'll be cantering so it has to be fit. You can tell like on one day at Yorkshire show there was 61 entered, 1,000 dales, 59 came in the ring. I would think there was only 10, 8 or 10 out of them 59 ponies that was fit for the job.
There was 8 or 10 that were pulled up at the end and they weren't puffing and the jockeys weren't puffing, the rest was blowing like trains going round and the jockeys was red. Even if you haven't got the best horse in the world, if it's fit and your jockey's fit and I don't mean to say that your jockey has to run a 20 mile marathon, it has to be riding fit, you know like you can jump off one and get on another and off you go. So I believe if you don't have to have the best ponies, you've got to have them fit and up for purpose. Part of the getting them fit regime is just hacking them out? Hackers get
Fell Pony Podcast episode 18
Terry Pendry
Hey how you doing? Welcome to the Fell Pony Podcast. My name's Tom Lloyd and it's really lovely to have you here again. On today's show I'm talking with a man whose journey from very humble beginnings has taken him to the pinnacle of horse culture. You may know him from the image of him standing on the long walk at Windsor Castle with Carlton Lima Emma. So I would like to introduce my guest Terry Pendry who for the last 28 years served as head groom to the Queen and was awarded the title of Military Knight. Hello Mr Pendry, Mr Terry Pendry. I actually really want to call you Sir Knight but I'm not sure what what's well how do I address you because you've been awarded the is it the Royal Victoria Medal? Yeah well just just lately sort of you've got Tom you just go up through the ranks and this one I've just been awarded is the CVO and I would willingly willingly give it back and all the medals that I own over the years with my military career and the Royal Household just to have one more day with Her Majesty I would willingly do that so so this one really is a bittersweet one for me but nevertheless Tom I would really rather give them all back just to enjoy one more day with Her Majesty just one more day I know it's a silly thing to say but go I do miss her we miss her so badly but there we are that's life but before she passed she awarded me also to become a Military Knight. Now that is not a Sir Knight it's just that now that for two reasons really I spend the rest of my life on my knees on Sunday praying for the Garter Knights and for the Royal Family and I suppose in her wisdom she was keeping me here to keep a watchful eye on Emma too. Well I would really like to think that's that's so and that's very touching it's very warming to hear that actually so so if you don't mind me asking how would the Queen have addressed you Terry? Would she just call you Terry? In private she used to call me Terry quite often but in company and I insisted on it when I first came to work for her Pendry it was my father's name and it works very well for me very good and I mustn't mustn't forget that I was her servant and albeit that we did become very very friendly in in our in my service to the Queen but Pendry worked nicely for me. Wow okay right well if you don't mind I'm going to call you Terry is that okay? Absolutely and thank you so much you may I'll call you Tom. Absolutely of course you may I'm honoured and privileged so okay so look Terry let's go right back to the start and I'm sure there's so many stories and memories and experiences. I did pick up a little thing actually I wanted to go back to when you first started riding and actually I read somewhere that you didn't start riding on a horse or a pony but you started riding on a cow was that right? That's very very true Tom I'm from the Gloucester Worcestershire Hereford borders and I used to spend all my school holidays on my Uncle Ray's farm which nestles underneath the Malvern Hills and in the summer months there was so much good grass out there that my cousin Colin and I would be taken out in an old A40 van kicked out the back and we would have to bring the cows home but as soon as my Uncle Ray had disappeared around the corner Colin and I would just leap onto one each and and get a nice ride home it was really good fun exhilarating actually and if you ever ride a cow you don't sit right on the middle of their backs you sit right back on their backsides and stick your knees into that hollow bit you know and and if you can grab hold of the tail and hang on it's even better but I'm afraid Mr Cadbury it wasn't what he wanted there was milk everywhere and by the time we got home it was from halfway to making chocolate I'd say and then I believe you had a little pony called Jenny and that wasn't actually my first pony my first pony was a pony called Kelly which we bought in Hereford market for 40 pounds unbroken and I have to say he was a hard task master he could buck for England and I saw most of the orchard from an upside down position hanging out of apple trees and pear trees but I have to say he turned out to be an incredible pony won awful lots of chimcanas and show jumping and and and he was an incredible pony but the very very first pony I ever rode Tom was a little pony called Jenny little bay thing and she was a she was a lovely lovely lovely pony but the first time I got on it was one of those little felt saddles yes and I have to say it slipped around her belly and I had my foot caught in the stir pine and she dragged me along the common on my backside for I suppose 10 or 15 yards but it damn well hurt and I never trusted a saddle for years after that all the gym carners and jumping that I did I rode bareback I didn't trust I just didn't trust saddles so is that is that like gypsy style so lean back and heels down and toes up for trotting races yes I would do that for trotting races but for bending races and jumping I just sat up and and got on with it I had a pretty good balance and you know and I think that actually kind of set me up in life but my uncle also had pointer pointers and I sit on the back of them after he grew them in the evening actually grooming no not grooming strapped in those days he strapped his horse you could shave they were like mirrors and I used to hang on to the anti-cast roller while they're having a pick of grass and he just told me of all the races he was going to win and what they're these horses just it just got me going and I wanted to be a jockey from the moment I was on the farm so nothing else mattered by that time then I of course I had to start riding in a saddle and when I did I rode with my shirt so short that you could almost my knees were up around my ears you know but at least I didn't get dragged anymore so how long were you a jockey and what so what go on tell me a bit about your jockey career oh well the jockeying came I was I left I left school early I was 14 and three quarters and I kind of almost walked out of school and I went straight to a chap called the Jack Yeomans, J.P. Yeomans at Hill, Crewham, Upton on 7 and I did used to bike there at weekends and help muck out and he signed me up as an apprentice at the age of 15 within I think four months I had my first ride in Scotland at Hamilton actually we were on the Scottish circuit so we used to come up past your way way back in the mid 60s up over the top of Chap Fell and there was no motorway there then it was and that's where I saw those little black ponies that's right that's right because at the time there would have been both sides of well the Howgills and on the other side of Tee Bay Gorge I mean going back then there would have been probably a hundred or so ponies on the Howgills they were like little black ants all over the place it was fascinating but I never really understood what they were I knew where I was and we were going over the top of Chap Fell and we were always terrified if it snowed or if there was a frost as to whether we'd get over there or not oh well amazing that that stuck with you for so long so you did the jockeying for how many years did you were you well I actually rode up there for only like two seasons so that weight got to me and I got a little bit too heavy we would take 20 or 30 horses and either stay at Hamilton or at Eyre we'd be there for a month six weeks and and we as the apprentices would ride the horses and I had my first placed horse in I think 1966 at Eyre on a horse that I wasn't supposed to ride the stable jockey was supposed to ride it but he was terrified of it didn't turn up said he was stuck in a traffic jam well in those days there weren't traffic jams but that's by the by so anyway I got to ride this horse and it ran away with me in a mile and a half race and I finished third at 33 to 1 they only caught me in the last 100 yards and so that was fun and and that that was that was my first placed horse and then Lanark I rode a winner at Lanark a crown plus two champion apprentice race on a horse called Vigrick and I won by five lengths that was exhilarating I just didn't want to stop I can imagine oh yeah yeah yeah yeah well any gallop on a horse is amazing but I'd imagine the front of a front of a race yeah it's amazing so at some point I don't know how old you have been you joined the army as a trooper in the blues and royals is that correct yeah well in those days I played an awful lot of cricket three county league Herriford Worcester and Gloucestershire and and my wife Sue we've been married now almost for 48 years she became a laboratory technician and moved to London to the what was then the new Charing Cross hospital and I used to go down to visit and we